Aero Comfort interior issue

[duckguy]

Hey folks, this post is really to gauge opinions and not gripe even though it's kind of a gripe. I recently picked up my first Mooney and m20j and all went off without a hitch. I have been flying the plane and love it. I did note at the inspection the headrest monogram was coming off but no biggie and I would resolve it later. The previous owner had an ENTIRE Aero Comfort interior installed in July 2011, about 3 1/2 and about 125 hours ago. I sent this picture to them and subsequently sent both headrests to them in there hopes of being able to repair the one and beef up the second so it wouldn't happen in the future. I came to find out it was unreparable and the original leather was now unavailable and a "like" leather would need to be used to recover both headrests and re-monogrammed at a cost of 100 each. I know 200 isn't a lot especially in comparison to how much the whole job originally was but I was disappointed they didn't just resolve the issue. Auto manufacturers have 3 year warranties and if my 3.5 year old car did this I would be pretty upset and I sit in my car every day. This thing has been obviously very lightly used. Am I off base here or have my expectations to high?

[carusoam]

You are off base (using your words) by aligning aviation expectations to automotive expectations...

Hector and company are one of the best suppliers in the Mooney world.

When you work with Hector, you are getting the best of what is available.

If it is not available, he has presented other solutions at a pretty low price.

In the automotive world they produce 40,000 of the same model car they produce each year. In this case, it's more like a Rolls where they only make a few per year. $200 won't cover the RR price of repair.

Since you can't get an exact match, try to do something creative that stands off intentionally...?

Ask Hector for some ideas like this as well.

The leather didn't age good enough for the sewing process. Is there a leather conditioning product to prevent that from happening? A slightly larger logo design may help repair the existing leather?

I am trying to supply positive ideas to a physical leather challenge. No attack intended...

Hope that helps,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

To me that doesn't seem unfair at all but I get what your saying. I think when I bought my headrest covers from AirTechs they where $250 each with no monogram and I had to have it installed. A solution is if the back seat head rest the same and could they be rotated? If so I would push a pieace of cloth in the hole and glue it to the back side of the leather and monogram then swap the front to back.

[duckguy]

The larger monogram idea is a great one I hadn't thought of. I will have to bring that up. If they can peel the headrests off and re-monogram over it that would be great. So you don't think Aircraft standards should be held to automotive because they produce less? I would think that 5x more expensive, hand made items that are "the best available" wouldn't fall apart after 3 years of little use and hangared care... Should I then also be concerned about my seats needing premature replacement as they are made from the same interior leather?

[rbridges]

The larger monogram idea is a great one I hadn't thought of. I will have to bring that up. If they can peel the headrests off and re-monogram over it that would be great. So you don't think Aircraft standards should be held to automotive because they produce less? I would think that 5x more expensive, hand made items that are "the best available" wouldn't fall apart after 3 years of little use and hangared care... Should I then also be concerned about my seats needing premature replacement as they are made from the same interior leather

 

I can see your side of it, especially since a plane gets so much less interior traffic to cause wear and tear than a typical car of the same age.  Unfortunately, I don't think you can compare a third party warranty with that of a new car.  It's not unusual to see 1 year, or even less, warranties on a lot of stuff.  I'd be aggravated about the logo coming off, but it would go along with every other unexpected expense I've seen in the last 4 years of ownership.  You might send a letter to explain your side of it, and maybe it would help?

[PTK]

Based on your description of the issue I don't think you're off base at all, frankly.

The headrest monogram should not come off if (1) it was embroidered and (2) done properly. How much use does a headrest really get subjected to?

It apparently wasn't done properly.

Granted the previous owner should have addressed this with them.

I would press them to stand behind their work and fix this for you and fix it properly.

You're not asking for anything irrational and don't feel bad about it!

Take also a look at this sagging ugly leather yoke. Exactly how many times does one need pay to get something done properly??!

[fantom]

You won't find better than Aero Comfort....

 

$200 to completely redo two headrests after almost four years, to someone who isn't the original customer, is more than fair IMHO.

[duckguy]

^ I agree its fair if I just wanted it done to want it done but not to correct an obvious flaw in construction that shouldn't fail after such little time or use. Warranty of a year or not its still an issue that some part of it, the leather or the embroidery was poor.

[duckguy]

PTK- obviously once more but do trust when others say you got the best there is...

[Cruiser]

Best way to resolve this is to raise these questions directly with Aero-Comfort. I would talk to Hector directly. It sounds like you are being processed "through the system" which does not look at the problem at all, it just handles the mechanics of the transaction. 

 

You need to point out the issue to someone that is interested in fixing it. 

The question I would want to know as a potential future customer of Aero-Comfort would be...... "How long would Aero-Comfort expect this product/service to last in normal conditions?

IF they think it is only a three or four year life cycle, I would question the value of the investment as an owner.

If they think it should last longer, then the obvious question from you is why didn't it in my airplane?

What happens next should be dictated by the specific details of your issue.

[duckguy]

Hector and I have in fact been emailing directly regarding the issue and I agree with all of your questioning.

[PTK]

Duckguy, you've done more than enough on your part showing goodwill by giving them the opportunity to correct their work. You're not asking for any favors and don't feel bad about it! This is their work.

It's up to them to show you what they value more: the 200$ or their reputation and work!

If you have to pay take your money elsewhere and fix your headrests.

[fantom]

As a point of reference, not many products come with a lifetime warranty.

 

The Mooney International factory warranty on the airframe and Mooney manufactured parts is 36 months or 600 hours, whichever comes first.

 

Good luck with Hector. He's a fair minded, reasonable, businessman.

[rbridges]

Duckguy, you've done more than enough on your part by showing goodwill and giving them the opportunity to correct their work. You're not asking for any favors and don't feel bad about it!

It's up to them to show you what they value more: the 200$ or their reputation and work!

If you have to pay take your money elsewhere and fix your headrests.

 

exactly.  Aviation circles are small with retailers.  I've avoided purchases from certain companies based on negative reviews from these forums.  On the flipside, I've paid more to companies with good reps b/c I didn't want to deal with headaches from saving a buck.

[ArtVandelay]

Does nobody get cloth seats?

Here in the south I would prefer cloth I think, I missing something?

[duckguy]

I truly understand the limited vs lifetime warranty and also know in business there can be the letter of the law and the intent of the law. At the end of the day this should not have failed! Is it the best out there or do those of you who think so, think so because you paid a lot of money for your interiors and justify it. I had my Archer done around the same time buy a old timer locally and they look and feel great. The best of the best should not be using a subpar leather or subpar techniques which is quite obviously what occurred here making me doubt the leather my seats are made of too. If this thing sat in the sun and cold for 10 years it would be different but this isn't how great materials or workmanship should hold up or how it gets resolved by the producers. The best of the best says this shouldn't happen, I am correcting it and I am overnighting them back to you and if it was a leather issue let me now if there are any future issues please contact me immediately. I don't like that I had to come here and potentially put doubts to future customers but I gave them the opportunity first and I could have and would have reported at how great the response was.

[PTK]

Based on the photo it looks like the tight embroidery cut the leather. Properly embroidered leather requires a backing behind the leather, so the leather is sandwiched between the backing and the embroidery. The embroidered pattern is tightly stitched and without the backing cuts the leather. It appears to be the result of substandard workmanship.

If it was my airplane I'd have them correct with new leather piece and be certain they use a backing! To go to larger pattern would be too large and will not look right.

If they can't find same leather that matches to your satisfaction then they need to do whole seat. It's their problem. You want it done and look right.

Also I'd put them on notice as to the rest of the emblems on your other headrests they've done.

[MARZ]

From the looks the monigram stitching was too close together. It wound up "cutting" the leather.

I'd get some carpet tape - not the sticky stuff but the tape that has to be heated to melt the glue and fix the failed headrest as well as reinforce the rest.

[dcrogers11]

Just throwing out another idea if all else fails.  Hector might be able to salvage the headrest and embroidery work by putting the logo back into it's "hole" and running another border around the present stitching which ties the old logo to the un-cut leather.  Maybe using a another color that matches the present color scheme and give it more depth.  

 

Don

[N601RX]

I don't think anything is wrong with the leather itself. The needle holes are just so close together that they overlap or almost overlap not leaving enough material to hold it together.

[Bob_Belville]

I agree with PTK that the sewing was improper. Upholstery leathers can be weak as well and might be a factor. Tanning is an art with many variables. (In previous lives I bought cattle hides, managed a tannery. we were in footwear. And I've had to visit customer facilities with problems sewing my leather.) The fact that the leather in discontinued after only a few years might be telling.

[ahkahn]

I am in the upholstery supply business.  I can second what Bob_Belville said with some limited authority that this was caused by the needle-punching in the embroidery were too close together and pretty much perforated the material.  Leather will do that more so than vinyl because leather is unsupported (no backing).  Vinyl is much stronger (because of it's knitted fabric backing) and will hold embroidery much better.  Sometimes people will add a backing to the embroidery (usually white material underneath the embroidery) to add support for it and to help prevent this from happening.  

 

Any decent upholsterer or upholstery manufacturer should easily recognize this problem and be willing and able to replace/repair it.  A few years may be pushing it, but it's clearly a quality issue due to the embroidery and not wear and tear. 

 

EDIT: Also, contrary to common belief, vinyl (faux leather, leatherette, etc) is a better/stronger/tougher product 95% of the time over real leather.  In the trade, the only reason people ever use real leather is so that they can say they have real leather!  It will last much longer, look much better over the long haul, and stay cleaner longer.

 

-Andrew

[PTK]

I'm not an expert but I did my leather interior locally by an expert. I watched closely and learned a great deal.

In embroidery there are variables such as stitch density and stitch length. Density is the distance between stitches. These are dictated by the desired image being embroidered and the material onto which it's applied.

An experienced and skillful specialist will consider and be able to balance these variables to achieve a result that's durable and lasting and pleasing to the eye.

The Mooney bird on our headrests requires some short stitches and if done with excessive densitiy will be stiff and not flexible. Combine that with no supporting backing (really?!!) led to the failure of it cutting the leather and separating at the perforation. This is what happened here.

Fact of the matter is if this was done properly it would've never failed. It's very poor workmanship by an amateur. Pure and simple. And to ask for more money is really cheap and absurd! It speaks volumes!

[Bob_Belville]

I had my seats redone in leather by a local auto trim shop who does a lot of classic cars restorations. We used the same leather for side panel arm rests and trim, JBar boot, rear seat kick panel and baggage area surround. It took 2 full hides. I considered embroidering but after seeing this failure from a well respected shop I'm glad I didn't. The pilot seat in particular takes a lot of abuse.

 

I agree that some man made materials have some superior characteristics compared to leather but I still prefer the real thing where it is appropriate. My 35 year old flight jacket is suffering dry rot and has a tear or two but I spent $100 for a new lining and some restitching last year, the wear just adds to the appeal, at least to me. 

[Marauder]

My 35 year old flight jacket is suffering dry rot and has a tear or two but I spent $100 for a new lining and some restitching last year, the wear just adds to the appeal, at least to me.

I have a jacket like this as well. For me the "wear" makes me look younger.