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What should Mooney do?

201er

By 201er
in General Mooney Talk

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What should Mooney do?  

101 members have voted

  1. 1. What would you like to see Mooney do most?

    • Bring back the J
      42
    • Improve the Acclaim
      8
    • Go turbine
      12
    • Make cheap planes in China
      5
    • Discontinue plane building and stick to parts
      2
    • Put a parachute on it
      7
    • Add a second door
      11
    • Do exactly what they are currently doing
      14

  2. 2. Realistically (as a business) what do you think Mooney needs to do?

    • Cirrusize the M20 with parachute, doors, and pampering novice pilots
      21
    • Go faster with a turbine
      8
    • Sell new Js for $649k+
      4
    • Focus on Mooney Billionaire Club, aka sell Mooneys in China
      3
    • Build Mooneys in China to sell them cheaper in the US
      13
    • Invent a new plane and get it certified
      20
    • Improve interiors and gadgets offered
      7
    • Give up and stick to supporting the existing fleet
      7
    • Continue the way they are going
      18

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KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

Posted
Posted

All well and good, but the Ravin is not certified, and I'd bet a tank of avgas it is not certifiable to US FAR Part 23 either.  It would require massive re-engineering to change the materials... lots of design work and completely new stress analysis, even if it fit within the same exterior envelope.  :)

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mooneygirl
mooneygirl

After spending the whole week in the Mooney International tent at OSH14 I have to say I am pretty impressed.  This comment might not be popular, but, our company has needed an infusion of capital for

triple8s
triple8s

Sell aircraft that don't cost 600,000+ with G1000. Just sell a good J or K with options on the avionics. Everyone doesn't buy their auto with every available option, why should we be forced to buy air

FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC
FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC

Here is a novel idea...start by figuring out a way to increase the anemic useful load by 100+ lbs. They figured out the speed and efficiency part. Now how about utility?

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KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

Posted
Posted

A team lead by one dedicated Mooniac from Kansas could probably get the job done???

Just sayin,

-a-

I would love to be on such a team, but sadly I doubt they'll be doing any such fun stuff. :(  

  • Like 1
DaV8or Grand Master

DaV8or

Posted
Posted

Don't forget the Mooney wing and definitely make it a 4 seat. :)

 

The reason most kits are two seat is because aside from a lower material cost and faster build time, mainly it's because the bulk of the construction can be done in a typical American garage. When you go to four seats, it starts getting a little too big for the garage.

 

In addition to this reason, I also strongly believe that Mooney should enter the kit market with a two seater because it's an area of the GA market that Mooney doesn't occupy and two seaters have proven to be far more popular amongst people that actually buy unbuilt kits. Mooney already has low cost four seaters. All the planes we are flying. They already have a foothold there. In addition, my next gen M20 in phase two would also be a four seater.

1964-M20E Grand Master

1964-M20E

Posted
Posted

Dave

Good point.

In fact Mooney really already has plenty of 2 seat planes out there they are B, C and Es. When I had my E I always said it was an excellent 2 seat plane with the ability to put 4 people in it if you needed to.

PMcClure Mentor

PMcClure

Posted
Posted

Even Mooney still has to follow physics. Wider cabin, more load, etc... have to have a trade off on an already optimized air frame. They either have to make the plane lighter or add more lift on the wings or add more HP out front. They already have the biggest production engine out there and added turbo for good measure. That is about as much hp as you are going to get out of the piston engines available. The plane everyone is talking (faster, more doors, more load, etc..) about already exists, with a turboprop and a price tag 3-4 times more than an Acclaim.  The Acclaim/Ovation is about as good as it can get. And we are fast, but not that fast. Cessna strapped the same engine on the TTX (composite frame) and delvers a little more load (1000lb) and 7 less knots with a fixed gear and sells for about the same.

 

My point is Mooney's legacy of speed is just that - Legacy. But it is still a marketing strategy that should be pushed. We need more pilots, more reasons to fly, less regulation, lower cost gas, certainty of gas supply, lower training costs, etc... I don't think the Chinese owners have that in mind. Maybe I am cynical. But I wish them all the success and hope they continue to support the existing fleet while developing the Chinese market. Maybe all those new pilots will be 
"over" there and we can ride on the coat tails. 

aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted

I know Raven is experimental.  Still it is an interesting case study in what can be done in replicating a proven certified design in modern materials and the speed and performance benefits that can follow.

 

I really think just reskinning a current M20 in carbon fiber already would be quite sufficient to reap significant benefits of smoother/speed/efficiency, lighter, and a faster build time.  In fact, I would go so far as to guess (not having full knowledge of the materials processes and difficulty) that someone could even develop an STC to reskin a current M20.  Or maybe the factory could offer that as an M20 overhaul/upgrade program.

 

Or an industrious homebuilder could reskin an M20 and make enough other mods so that it would become a proper experimental (?50%).

 

Plus big winglets.  Whether factory new/factory overhaul/STC - or homebuilder, I think doing this to an Acclaim we could look at a 260TAS+ airplane.  Or maybe a 185-190TAS M20J.

 

Like I said - maybe the windshield needs to slope a bit more too - like the Pipestral, but otherwise still the same airframe.

 

Also, with carbon skin as strengthening members it might allow for a change upward in the Vne.  Stronger, lighter, faster just with a change of skins.

carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

Posted
Posted

Erik,

Any chance of adding Ti tubing to the list for the same reasons?

Too flexible?

Too large of a diameter?

Thinking about your previous other tubing experience... I picture sending a drawing and getting a Ti M20E frame shipped in from oversees...

Best regards,

-a-

aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted

Erik,

Any chance of adding Ti tubing to the list for the same reasons?

Too flexible?

Too large of a diameter?

Thinking about your previous other tubing experience... I picture sending a drawing and getting a Ti M20E frame shipped in from oversees...

Best regards,

-a-

 

A Ti airplane is my dream.  Only reason we have not seen Ti airplanes is cost - especially in the 1950s and 1960s when most of our GA airplanes were being designed - but that barrier seems to be coming down as compared to 30 40 50 years ago.  Its expensive not because it is a rare metal but the stuff is hard to work with, hard to machine and requires a special O2 free environment to weld with.  So not easy.  But these days it seems that those barriers are just details.

 

The benefits are super.  Stronger than steel, light as al, and never corrodes.  Oh and very good at absorbing shock.

 

I have 3 Ti bikes.  Two of which I designed in a CAD and had produced in china by this company:

 

http://www.xacd.com.cn/product.asp?rootcl=1

 

My US built custom bike (a thing of beauty) was ~$5k for the frame.  My road bike.  My Chineese frames were $500 each - so 1/10th the cost, one a Time trial frame and one a 29er mtn bike frame - all to my spec in every aspect based of the CAD.   The workmanship was 1st class - every weld, ever tube bend, every machined screw tapping was absolutely perfect.  The bikes built up very easily.  I cannot say that all my previous Italian, Swiff and other US custom frames over the years before it were of the same high quality.  I have been riding all 3 of these frames for almost 10 years now.  Heck I raced my TT bike last night (and won!) and I rode my Ti mtn bike to work today.

 

Oh - and these bikes never corrode.  Despite road salt, human sweat salt, there is not a spot of corrosion on them despite you don't bother painting Ti - you leave them nude - Ti colored bare metal.  And the fact that they are light is nice, but it is also the shock absorbing that they absorb high speed vibration which is nice - better than steel for sure - my guess is that as an airplane that would make a quieter airplane as it would not transmit prop vibrations as easily.

 

Since the Mooney frame is built in much the same style as a bike frame, just more tubes -  I don't see why a Ti frame couldn't be built.  Heck -In fact, I am sure if I sent an M20 frame to this XACD company in China and asked them to reproduce it in Ti they would do a super job.  Then we could build up the experimental carbon skinned airplane from there.   (Or it would be really cool to then skin it in Ti sheets - and not paint it - but that would require rivets and I do believe that carbon would be aerodynamically better).

 

If we were allowed - and I were more industrious and bold - I would send lots of small Mooney parts to this company for my own airplane - like my landing gear parts and so forth and ask for reproductions in Ti.  That would lighten and strengthen the gear and make it corrosion proof.  Alas - not allowed.

  • Like 1
DaV8or Grand Master

DaV8or

Posted
Posted

 

The price of planes will be much lower when the business, major production and most sales, are in Asia and else where outside the USA, free of the governmental and legal encumbrances we have.

 

 

I'll challenge you this- Plan a flight to China, Japan and South Korea with you flying your Mooney. Study up on what that entails. Then get back to us about all the freedom from government they have over there. :rolleyes:

 

That's what's so silly about the whole GA "boom" people predict in China. Ordinary citizens are not allowed to fly there and the military controls all the airports. The idea that lots of Chinese rich guys are going to buy a bunch of Mooneys and start freely zipping around the country like we do here is a dream and the reality being far, far in the future.

 

The realistic future and the reason Chinese investors have bought so many American GA companies is, they envision large flight training academies to train future airline pilots for future regional Chinese airlines. They also believe that the best way to grow into regional airliner manufacturing is to start small and build your way up.

 

China is awash with venture capital right now. It is wise for them to invest it in the US. However, just because they buy a company with a good name and long history guarantee success.  Just as countless Americans and Europeans have lost their fortunes in aviation, the Chinese are likely to as well. Sadly, I see favorable odds that Mooney will be bankrupt again. I hope that I am surprised with some genius master plan that we can't see now.

DaV8or Grand Master

DaV8or

Posted
Posted
If we were allowed - and I were more industrious and bold - I would send lots of small Mooney parts to this company for my own airplane - like my landing gear parts and so forth and ask for reproductions in Ti.  That would lighten and strengthen the gear and make it corrosion proof.  Alas - not allowed.

 

That would be an awesome set of STCs I imagine. All of the landing gear made in titanium and all of the push/pull control rods made in titanium. How much weight could be saved? I do have to admit though, it would take me awhile to truly trust the landing gear. I suspect fear would result in perfect greasers and excellent soft field technique for awhile! :D

aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted

That would be an awesome set of STCs I imagine. All of the landing gear made in titanium and all of the push/pull control rods made in titanium. How much weight could be saved? I do have to admit though, it would take me awhile to truly trust the landing gear. I suspect fear would result in perfect greasers and excellent soft field technique for awhile! :D

 

Yeah ... if only.

 

I would be completely confident in well made Ti gear.

 

http://www.differencebetween.net/object/difference-between-steel-and-titanium/

 

Says Ti is roughly 56% the weight of steel.  So call it half.  How much does our gear + rods weight?  How about we change out all the bolts, the engine frame and anything else we can think of - then how much?

 

...and as I said - the chromoly inner frame of the Mooney.

 

How about Ti engine cylinders?  :-)  That's gotta be better than Aluminum in terms of longevity.  I would think but I could be missing something (other than cost).  And engine case!  Ti withstands heat better than steel.

 

Give me a Ti prop!

 

One goofy thing we do in the bicycle "weight weenie" (as they call people like me in the bike world) one goofy thing we do is change out all the bolts and screws on the bike for Ti bolts.  Saves grams each.

 

With all the Ti stuff on my bikes, I have a friend who calls me "Captain Titanium".

 

I'm wearing a Ti watch right now as I type.  

 

I dream of an all Ti airplane.  An all Ti Mooney!!!

mooniac15u Veteran

mooniac15u

Posted
Posted

Yeah ... if only.

 

I would be completely confident in well made Ti gear.

 

http://www.differencebetween.net/object/difference-between-steel-and-titanium/

 

Says Ti is roughly 56% the weight of steel.  So call it half.  How much does our gear + rods weight?  How about we change out all the bolts, the engine frame and anything else we can think of - then how much?

 

...and as I said - the chromoly inner frame of the Mooney.

 

How about Ti engine cylinders?  :-)  That's gotta be better than Aluminum in terms of longevity.  I would think but I could be missing something (other than cost).  And engine case!  Ti withstands heat better than steel.

 

Give me a Ti prop!

 

One goofy thing we do in the bicycle "weight weenie" (as they call people like me in the bike world) one goofy thing we do is change out all the bolts and screws on the bike for Ti bolts.  Saves grams each.

 

With all the Ti stuff on my bikes, I have a friend who calls me "Captain Titanium".

 

I'm wearing a Ti watch right now as I type.  

 

I dream of an all Ti airplane.  An all Ti Mooney!!!

 

"Steel is used where there is a need for a hardened material, like axles for cars or trucks, whereas titanium structures do not guarantee longevity and have a fatigue limit."

 

I think I'll stick with steel on the landing gear and bolts.

aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted

"Steel is used where there is a need for a hardened material, like axles for cars or trucks, whereas titanium structures do not guarantee longevity and have a fatigue limit."

 

I think I'll stick with steel on the landing gear and bolts.

 

They use Ti in the middle structures of the F35.  It would be fine on my Mooney.

fantom Grand Master

fantom

Posted
Posted

I'll challenge you this- Plan a flight to China, Japan and South Korea with you flying your Mooney. Study up on what that entails. Then get back to us about all the freedom from government they have over there.

 

 

Right after we get your detailed trip report, Dave. :P

 

Never though I'd see you write, "freely zipping around the country like we do here".

 

We agree on the motivation of the Chinese aviation investors, who also have an eye on the creep of freedom there. There are more Porsche sales in China than any other country. Hopefully we may be able to say the same thing about Mooneys in the not to distant future. 

 

Oh, and I never said anything about Chinese 'freedom from government', but rather that they don't have the federal and legal regulations we put up with. In China, the government calls all the shots, and if you don't think they have to bless the Mooney purchase, well then, you've never studies up on them like you suggest I do.

 

....and so it goes B) .

OR75 Veteran

OR75

Posted
Posted

If Mooney wants to sell aircrafts in China and in the emerging markets, it will need a Diesel / Jet-A engine option plugged to its medium or long body airframe

 

A new Airframe certification is a big beast to tackle that Mooney probably cannot afford yet.

 

An engine STC hould not be.  The Mooney frame is strong enough to carry a heavier Diesel engine  (refer the rocket mod)

 

The good relationship with Continental in that respect makes a lot of sense. (while Lycoming primary objective is the 100LL replacement) 

 

 

mooniac15u Veteran

mooniac15u

Posted
Posted

They use Ti in the middle structures of the F35.  It would be fine on my Mooney.

 

I seriously doubt they are making bolts or landing gear out of Ti.

aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted

For the company that is known for that...

Allegheny Technologies (ATI)

https://atimetals.com/markets/aerospace/Pages/default.aspx

That would require a few AMUs....

Their Ti fasteners...

https://atimetals.com/markets/aerospace/semi-fabricated-products/Pages/Fastener-Stock.aspx

Interesting stuff...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Cool.  I wonder if we are allowed to put Ti cowl fasteners?

 

Come to think of it - our push rods should be carbon fiber and not Ti.  But Ti landing gear and frame, carbon skins. 

 

How about something as simple as replicating our pilots seats in carbon or Ti?

Didn't somebody make a carbon fiber belly panel?

mooniac15u Veteran

mooniac15u

Posted
Posted

Cool. I wonder if we are allowed to put Ti cowl fasteners?

Come to think of it - our push rods should be carbon fiber and not Ti. But Ti landing gear and frame, carbon skins.

How about something as simple as replicating our pilots seats in carbon or Ti?

Didn't somebody make a carbon fiber belly panel?

Carbon fibre tubes have good stiffness as long as they don't get deformed. I don't think I would want to count on it for push rods.

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