AmSafe airbags for C,E,F,G,J,early K Mooney

[Hank]

I don't understand the resistance to having this type of mod done at a Service Center. As an authorized center for Mooney, Diamond and Cirrus, I have all of the Amsafe test gear for these airframes. It's just part of the commitment required to support the airframe.

I don't recall what the test boxes cost, they sure weren't free. How many low budget shops or solo A&P's are going to buy the test boxes and them have the re certified annually for just one or two, airframes?

Clarence

Why do they need to be tested annually? The ones in my car are good for ten years. :-(

[Sabremech]

Edited.

[richardheitzman]

Thank you all. Very good comments. 

 

The reason why I come to the forum is that I get to hear the good, bad or indifferent. The people in this forum are a cross section of owners across America. 

 

I have work with polling before. The questions need to be work up, reviewed, reworked, formatted, listed tested and then the poll is sent out and people ignore it. It is very static and I am not a fan. So I would rather come in here daily and have a discussion with as many owners as I can. 

 

So again, the installation comments. I have never said an A&P mechanic will not have the skills to complete the installation. I listed some reasons why we only sell and install at authorized service centers. If having to take your aircraft to one of over 800 service centers world wide to have the installation completed is going to keep you from purchasing the system then there is nothing I can do for you. AmSafe will not sell direct and we will not support a owner installed or non authorized service center installation scenario. 

 

So let me go back to the question about what does the airbag system do. I really appreciate that question as it reminds me that as usual I jump in the middle instead of starting at the beginning. 

 

Airbags are designed to prevent head and torso trauma in what would be considered a survivable aircraft accident. 80% (or close enough for this discussion) of all general aviation accidents happen in close proximity of the airport, and most of those occur in slow flight or at speeds that are survivable. 

 

The number one injury and number one fatality is head and torso trauma from the vehicle occupant striking the interior of the aircraft despite using the aircraft seatbelt.  The NTSB and the FAA have reviewed the operation and effectiveness of the airbag system and have provided substantial data to show that they operate as intended. Here is a link to the latest report http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/safetystudies/ss1101.pdf  Here is one from the FAA  http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/divisions/alaskan_region/media/FSI_Report_AK.pdf

 

The system has an electronic module (EMA) with an on-board battery pack. The system does not interface with aircraft power. The seatbelt airbag system is contained in the lap belt portion of the harness. The EMA has two position sensors that is looking for force (greater than 9gs) and time (45ms or longer) and both force and time have to be seen before it triggers the system. The signal is sent to the inflator bottle (7000psi helium argon, non toxic, non flammable, deploys at room temperature) and deploys the charge. The charge travels down the inflator hose and fills the airbag. The airbag fills the area in front of the seat occupant and the occupant moves into the airbag , which prevents the focal point of impact and mitigating the head or torso trauma. 

 

The total deployment scenario is about 50ms, and the bag stays inflated for 3 - 5 seconds before self deflating. http://www.amsafe.com/videos/ to see some testimonials and to see videos of the airbag system in operation. 

 

I hope that sheds some light on why we make this system. 

 

Richard 

[richardheitzman]

Richard,

The mooney space attempt at contact was the last thing I tried and that was at the recommendation of another mooney space member,. My first attempts were e-mail and phone, neither of which I received any response. If it did get forwarded to another department a call or e-mail with a contact reference would be nice, actually any kind of response would have indicated that my questions were wort addressing, the fact that there was no response at all tells me your customer service is lacking. Btw, this is not the first experience I had with your customer service, the first time I contacted them a couple of years ago looking to see if a shoulder harness reel came with a cover, I did get a response that it didn't, but when I asked if a cover was available for it I never received another response.

Now getting to your reasons to require a service center to do the installation of air bag belts...

Any A&P with an IA can fill out and submit a form 337, you do not have to be a service center to do that.

It may be an added expense to initially purchase the test equipment, but I am assuming the test equipment required for installation is also the test equipment used for the annual tests so any shop that has the equipment can recoup that expense doing annual checks.

Most FBOs that would want to do the installations and service have a commercial address to ship to,

I see no valid reason not to let a qualified A&P who has all the proper equipment do the installations and servicing of the seat belts.

Brian

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi Brian, 

 

Thank you for your comments. I will make sure to pass them on to my customer service manager for follow up and review. 

 

Richard

[carusoam]

Richard,

I hope you don't mind me tagging along...

I took ownership of my O about four years ago.

I know virtually nothing about your system. I haven't seen one either.

My experience with airbags is limited, fortunately. What I have, comes from the automotive world.

We have had a few accidents in the MooneySpace family. We see Mooney accidents beyond the MS 'walls'. Is there something we can learn from these incidents...?

One of the first advertisements using airbags came from Chrysler. Two cars, each going 50mph, ran head-on into each other. Both drivers survived. Memorable presentation from the '90s...

We have several vendors here. There are two basic types. One type comes in explains their product hangs a while then fades.

The other type comes, explains, and always comes back.

Products range in price from a few hundred bucks for an Ice box to a couple hundred thousand for an airplane....

It helps if they fly a Mooney, they are here for reasons other than sales.

As a sales guy, it is difficult to always have to explain your product to everyone all the time. Especially when they have missed earlier details, or don't understand, or don't remember.

Often it is near impossible to support all customers in a public forum. This takes a special talent.

It probably takes nearly as much effort to sell a seatbelt system to a new customer as it takes Mooney to sell an airplane to the same guy.

From a technical point of view regarding restraints, what is the difference between Mooneys?

(1) weight in front of the pilot, engine, prop, and mount.

(2) weight overall.

(3) yokes and instrument panels.

Remind me again, what it would do for me?

How is it best used? (Slow down, land into the wind, etc..)

What do I need to know to purchase a proper system for my plane?

Best regards,

-a-

[mkolowich]

Ever since personally talking with someone whose life was saved by an Amsafe airbag deployment, I wanted to install them in my M20J, but could not.

 

The first thing I did when I traded in my J-model for a 2000 Ovation 2 (M20R) was to retrofit it with Amsafe airbags (during my first annual after buying the airplane).  I can't say they work great, of course, because (thank goodness) they have not deployed, but they look good, feel comfortable, and give me the confidence that I've done whatever I can to protect myself and my passengers in the event of a ground accident.

[richardheitzman]

Ever since personally talking with someone whose life was saved by an Amsafe airbag deployment, I wanted to install them in my M20J, but could not.

 

The first thing I did when I traded in my J-model for a 2000 Ovation 2 (M20R) was to retrofit it with Amsafe airbags (during my first annual after buying the airplane).  I can't say they work great, of course, because (thank goodness) they have not deployed, but they look good, feel comfortable, and give me the confidence that I've done whatever I can to protect myself and my passengers in the event of a ground accident.

Thank you very much for your comments. Considering that it is your first post to the Mooney forums I am proud that your first post is about AmSafe airbags. 

 

R

[richardheitzman]

Please see my answers below in italics. 

From a technical point of view regarding restraints, what is the difference between Mooneys? The difference between legacy and current production is related to the shoulder harness restraint. Early Mooney aircraft placement of the Inertia reel was high on the "B" pillar, then later models moved it low to the floorboard area. Some aircraft had fixed shoulder harnesses then moved to inertia reels. 

(1) weight in front of the pilot, engine, prop, and mount. The system total weight gain is 1.5 lbs per seat. On the Mooney there is no change in the W&B of the aircraft (per the STC) but there is some weight gain. 
(2) weight overall. (see above)
(3) yokes and instrument panels. The strike hazard (which we call the monuments) are form , fit and function similar across the product line. So the airbag that is designed for the long body aircraft will work with the short body aircraft. 

Remind me again, what it would do for me? Prevents head and torso trauma in what would be considered a survivable aircraft crash. 

How is it best used? (Slow down, land into the wind, etc..) As the saying goes, fly as far into the crash as possible, and then hang on for the ride. The airbags deploy automatically when the 9 g's of force at 45 ms or longer time is seen by the crash module. 

What do I need to know to purchase a proper system for my plane? Contact me via email at rheitzman@amsafe.com and I will provide you the part number to the system, then you can contact an authorized service center to coordinate your installation. 

Best regards,

-a-

[DaV8or]

Hi Richard!

 

I really like your product and would love to have them. At the $4,000 mark, I can't say I can commit to them right now, but I could see it in the future when I perhaps get a better revenue stream going, or when the annuals settle down and I've achieved some of the lesser projects (also about safety) that I would like to do. As long as I can afford it, I have no problem spending $4K on something that could save me and/or my passenger's life, even though my plane is likely only worth $60-70,000. If the belts were cheaper, they would be easier to swing sooner.

 

Question about the install- I bought and installed the Alpha inertial reel belts a few years back and really like them. The hardest and most time consuming part of the install was the clamps that go around the steel tubing in the B pillar. Would I be able to use those clamps over again with your system, or would I be required to remove them and then replace them with your own? If I could reuse them, it would really keep install costs down.

[PTK]

Good Morning, 

 

AmSafe is once again considering developing seatbelt airbag systems for the early model Mooney aircraft. With that being said the last time I came on to the forums with this information we received very lukewarm support and interest. 

 

It is very hard for me to justify internally with my management the cost of the program when only a couple dozen or so owners step up and say they are interested. 

 

So consider this a grass roots initiative. 

 

This process is simple. Talk to your buddies, talk to your friends, talk with everyone you know who owns a Mooney and might be interested in Airbags on their aircraft similar to the ones installed on the current production Mooney aircraft. 

 

Come on to this forum and basically say "yes I am interested". 

 

I will keep this going for a couple weeks and tally up the response. I am also going to send this same message over to the Mooney Ambassador Facebook page.

 

Pricing is still up in the air, you can expect anywhere from $3,000 to $4,000 for the kit which includes everything for the pilot and co pilot seats.

 

ordering and installation can only be done at a authorized service center. No exceptions to that rule. No new service centers will be brought into the network to complete an order for a customer. Labor to install is usually 8 hours.

 

I will check on this forum once a day and answer questions. Be nice and please do not flood my email with questions, ask them here and I will answer, that way everyone has the same information.

 

So thank you for your interest and I look forward to seeing everyone out at EAA Oshkosh.

 

With Kindest Regards,

 

Richard 

Richard, would you kindly transfer this to the vendor's forum?

[richardheitzman]

I would if I knew how 

[ChristianGodin]

Yes I would buy it as soon asit is available.

[FloridaMan]

I am certainly interested.

 

Those of us in Mooneys tend to sit pretty close to the panel. 

 

If you have ever seen a survivor of a plane crash where an occupant has injuries to his or her face, you would be more inclined to invest. My grandfather stuffed a baron in the trees in the early 1960s and people who he'd known all his life did not recognize him afterwards. 

 

The several-thousand hour instructor that trained me for my instrument rating had to do an interview, having had a former student crash in a Piper. The guy paid for his fuel, but did not realize that he was paying for a prior fill-up and didn't look in his tanks to verify fuel. He had lap belts only and had to have major reconstructive facial surgery. 

[DaV8or]

I'm hoping that this is one of those potential life saving technologies that the FAA will recognize is beneficial and they allow a relaxed certification like they have the AoA indicators. Then companies like Richard's might not have to question development for new types so much and the price could be reduced. The other major cost factor, liability, I don't think we will ever be able to deal with without reinventing the American consumer.

[Hank]

I'm hoping that this is one of those potential life saving technologies that the FAA will recognize is beneficial and they allow a relaxed certification like they have the AoA indicators. Then companies like Richard's might not have to question development for new types so much and the price could be reduced. The other major cost factor, liability, I don't think we will ever be able to deal with without reinventing the American consumer lawyer.

 

I agree, Dave, as modified.

[Mooney_Allegro]

Richard,

I've been waiting for the Amsafe airbag system for my J model since 2008. I've seen the Amsafe website, videos, and safety data, and want the piece of mind of having protection between me & the instrument panel/yoke in the event of a survivable accident. Please make this project happen!

[davidsguerra]

i would be interested for my Rocket

[richardheitzman]

Yes I would buy it as soon asit is available.

Thank you for your reply.

 

R

[richardheitzman]

Ouch, sorry about your grandfather. Thank you for your comments.

I am certainly interested.

 

Those of us in Mooneys tend to sit pretty close to the panel. 

 

If you have ever seen a survivor of a plane crash where an occupant has injuries to his or her face, you would be more inclined to invest. My grandfather stuffed a baron in the trees in the early 1960s and people who he'd known all his life did not recognize him afterwards. 

 

The several-thousand hour instructor that trained me for my instrument rating had to do an interview, having had a former student crash in a Piper. The guy paid for his fuel, but did not realize that he was paying for a prior fill-up and didn't look in his tanks to verify fuel. He had lap belts only and had to have major reconstructive facial surgery. 

[richardheitzman]

Hopefully it will take off. The price point is an issue that needs to be overcome. I will continue to work on that internally

 

R

Richard,

I've been waiting for the Amsafe airbag system for my J model since 2008. I've seen the Amsafe website, videos, and safety data, and want the piece of mind of having protection between me & the instrument panel/yoke in the event of a survivable accident. Please make this project happen!

[richardheitzman]

Thank you David.

 

R

i would be interested for my Rocket

[Marauder]

Ouch, sorry about your grandfather. Thank you for your comments.

 

Thanks for looking into the price point. It will be a stumbling block for a number of us.

[carusoam]

Richard,

Did you receive an email or PM from me?

Best regards,

-a-

[richardheitzman]

I don't know if I received an email from you, but I checked I do not have a PM from you. 

 

I was in Phoenix all last week and very busy. What is your email address and I will check my work emails. 

 

R

Richard,

Did you receive an email or PM from me?

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

R,

Click on my avatar, my email address is there...

Thank you,

-a-