DS1980 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 I wouldn't have thought it would come down that slow. It's nice having that ace up the sleeve if the airplane does something the pilot didn't ask it to do. Quote
bnicolette Posted May 11, 2014 Author Report Posted May 11, 2014 That's what I thought too. It sure did look like it was floating "gingerly" down to mother earth. Although it did make quite a racket when it reached terra firma. I guess that all four folks were uninjured. Quote
carusoam Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 Interesting! Very stable in the no-wind situation. I was expecting nose low and bobbing. Appears... Slow from the ground looking up. Fast from the cockpit looking down. Knowing that the landing gear gets crushed during the final stand. It's a lot of force. Best regards, -a- Quote
Danb Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 Ditto. Surprised its descent was so slow Guess they do save those in trouble Quote
Hank Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 Put this plane on approach into Stinson, the chute very well could have landed on the ballgame, or in that big cement ditch that I guess passes for a river. I'd rather have control over my fate, like the Acclaim pilot. The Cirrus came down at a not-very-slow speed, twisting from side to side, and hit hard enough to flatten the landing gear and rip off the tail. The pilot had zero control, and his fate was in where the winds blew him. Glad it wasn't into water, or a house like the photographer thought. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-10/light-plane-crashes-in-lawson-in-blue-mountains/5444350 Still think it was slow? Listen to the tress cracking and crunching in the video . . . . Quote
FlyDave Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 I read the article and if the witness is correct, it appears to me that the only thing that was SLOW was the pilots airspeed after loosing the engine: Lawson Bowling Club president Greg Howlett says he saw the Cirrus SR22 plane go down. "The motor just cut out. The engine just stopped," he said. "He started to glide for a little bit and then he went into a spiral ... a very slow spiral. "He deployed his parachute. It slowed the plane down immensely. Now, there may be more to it than that, but the pilot probably wouldn't have needed the parachute if he hadn't done what appears he did from this account (providing my assessment is correct): Lost the engine Failed to maintain best glide speed or even an airspeed above stall Ended up in a spin. Also, I don't think the Cirrus is rated for spins - but someone correct me if I'm wrong. Quote
adrian Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 I'd rather have the chute! By my reckoning 14 out of the last 100 fatal Mooney accidents have been attempted forced landings that didn't work out. Either hitting an obstacle, landing on rough ground, or spinning in while trying to stretch a glide to a landable area. It's a similar story for other high performance aircraft. Without a parachute it's a game of Russian roulette. You have some control over your fate, but you have a very good chance that your fate is going to be death. With the chute you lose the airplane and you don't control where you arrive, but nobody has ever died if they pulled the chute when they were high enough and slow enough, and nobody on the ground has ever been hurt. Plenty of people on the ground have been hurt by high-energy forced landings in unsuitable places. I love my Mooney, but if I had to have an engine failure I'd much rather be in a Cirrus! I'd rather have control over my fate, like the Acclaim pilot. 1 Quote
DS1980 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 Interesting! Very stable in the no-wind situation. I was expecting nose low and bobbing. Appears... Slow from the ground looking up. Fast from the cockpit looking down. Knowing that the landing gear gets crushed during the final stand. It's a lot of force. Best regards, -a- Have you been a parachute puller? Quote
DS1980 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 I cannot think of another plane that you can land in trees and have the press print "two men on board escaped without serious injury. One was taken to hospital as a precautionary measure." This doesn't even consider the minimizing of property damage. I love the Mooney. I would adore it if it had a MAPS. 2 Quote
DaV8or Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 I love the Mooney. I would adore it if it had a MAPS. I'm sure it soon will. It has to be high on the list of upgrades for 2016, or 17. The problem will be, where to find the usable load to allow it? New Mooneys are already weight challenged. I personally think the parachute is awesome. Great credit needs to go to Cirrus. It gives you a choice. Screw dead sticking into rough terrain using the old, "Fly the plane as far into the crash as possible" strategy. If there is a runway, road, parking lot, sure go it. If not, glide it to an area where you're pretty sure you won't end up in power lines, houses or a bus full of nuns and pull the 'chute. What's not to love? 1 Quote
DS1980 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 What do you think it would add to the cost? Are people ready for a $900,000 piston single? Quote
Danb Posted May 11, 2014 Report Posted May 11, 2014 They already have $900+ in the piper Malibu???the Bonanza G36 loaded approaches that amount..as does a loded TTX Quote
DaV8or Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 What do you think it would add to the cost? Are people ready for a $900,000 piston single? I don't know what it would add, but it better be zero. They have to stay in the price range of the Cirrus if they want to sell any new Mooneys. Bottom line is, Cirrus has it and it sells planes. Mooney better figure out how to get it too. Quote
carusoam Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 (Darin)For the record... No... I have not jumped out of a perfectly good plane. Pulling the parachute seems to be the end of the line for the plane in a high percentage of the pulls... We had one Cirrus steer itself, with the engine running, to a "safe" landing in the Hudson River. Unfortunately, the pilot found a brain tumor was his next challenge... We also had a cirrus drop into the East River without pulling the chute. (Cory Lidle with a flight instructor) My # 2 home drome (Falmouth Airpark) had a Cirrus accident, flaming wreckage with a flight instructor on board. More parachute use gives more data, for improved designs. M20 + 4 people = a big challenge. Cirrus hasn't answered all the questions, I don't believe? Cirrus pilots may not be able to answer the call.... Either way, no dough in the account. Can't afford an old one or a new one... Won't be able to answer that question for myself... Looks like a controlled landing is still a viable option. That's the one I'm planning/practicing for. Best regards, -a- Quote
flight2000 Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 Just a minor correction on the Cory Lidle accident in the SR20. They were making a 180 degree turn in the Hudson Corridor when they failed to compensate for the strong wind and ended up crashing into an apartment high rise. No time to pull a chute in that case. Thinking of another one perhaps? Cheers, Brian Quote
carusoam Posted May 12, 2014 Report Posted May 12, 2014 Brian, (No), I was going from memory on things that the chute just won't do. I have memory challenges typical of aging. Coming up with Cory's name was impressive. Pretty sure it was the East river, because it ends abruptly at the north end up by Yankee Stadium (Cory's work place). Could be speculation on my part. Either way, the chute requires pilot recognition of the situation, a stressful decision, followed by execution of the procedure. From 1,000’ there doesn't seem to be enough time for well trained pilots to execute that cognitive/physical process. Getting in an unexpected stall situation is often showing decision/execution challenges? Avoid stalls, land with minimal speed, avoid hard objects, then report to the folks on MooneySpace how you did it... Then expect some armchair quarterbacking, because human nature does this... The good news is... There are a few of us here who have executed this challenge. Many more than those who were unable. To make the parachute one step better, it would require a whole new level of automation. Or a whole new pilot training? I believe in the Mooney and the pilots that fly them. Continue to maintain and train.... My thoughts, and my thoughts only... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
M016576 Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 Brian, (No), I was going from memory on things that the chute just won't do. I have memory challenges typical of aging. Coming up with Cory's name was impressive. Pretty sure it was the East river, because it ends abruptly at the north end up by Yankee Stadium (Cory's work place). Could be speculation on my part. Either way, the chute requires pilot recognition of the situation, a stressful decision, followed by execution of the procedure. From 1,000’ there doesn't seem to be enough time for well trained pilots to execute that cognitive/physical process. Getting in an unexpected stall situation is often showing decision/execution challenges? Avoid stalls, land with minimal speed, avoid hard objects, then report to the folks on MooneySpace how you did it... Then expect some armchair quarterbacking, because human nature does this... The good news is... There are a few of us here who have executed this challenge. Many more than those who were unable. To make the parachute one step better, it would require a whole new level of automation. Or a whole new pilot training? I believe in the Mooney and the pilots that fly them. Continue to maintain and train.... My thoughts, and my thoughts only... Best regards, -a- Time compression can work in your favor as a pilot too, albeit an extremely stressful situation! I'm not sure how long it takes from pulling the CAPS handle to having a safe chute with steady decent going, but take a look at low altitude ejection videos on YouTube. (The Canadian hornet one comes to mind)- it's pretty amazing how quickly humans can recognize impending disaster and pull an "oh $h*t" handle. I've watched a couple of the AOPA safety case studies about flight into icing and mountainous terrain where 2 different pilots deployed their zz parachutes after taking on ice and entering a spin, and in both cases the parachutes were found shredded at the wreckage sight. The explanation being that they were deployed out of the envelope to be successful. It seems like a great system, but it certainly has it's limitations, and like everything in aviation- any capability you add comes with a price. Quote
orionflt Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 I think the CAPS system is a great idea but i wonder how many times it has been used when it wasn't necessary. in the video it looks to be a nice VFR day, what were the pilots choices? I'm assuming he tried to restart the engine, but did he look for a suitable landing spot or did he just deploy the chute because he had it available? I obviously wasn't in the airplane and do not know the situation but unless i have no other alternative i would rather be a pilot then a passenger. Brian Quote
DaV8or Posted May 13, 2014 Report Posted May 13, 2014 I'm assuming he tried to restart the engine, but did he look for a suitable landing spot or did he just deploy the chute because he had it available? I obviously wasn't in the airplane and do not know the situation but unless i have no other alternative i would rather be a pilot then a passenger. Brian IMO, in a Cirrus with the landing speeds and the type of gear they have, only a paved surface, possibly a dirt road, or a prepared grass surface is suitable. Hills, farmer's fields, bushes, rough terrain, water... if I have the choice I would pick the 'chute and become a passenger. Remember, if you have altitude, you can still glide the airplane to the best option for a successful parachute deployment as well as to get as low as possible before deployment to reduce the radius of potential landing places. You do have some control. In addition, if the engine still has partial power, I believe it can be used to steer the parachute. Quote
AndyFromCB Posted May 15, 2014 Report Posted May 15, 2014 I think the CAPS system is a great idea but i wonder how many times it has been used when it wasn't necessary. in the video it looks to be a nice VFR day, what were the pilots choices? I'm assuming he tried to restart the engine, but did he look for a suitable landing spot or did he just deploy the chute because he had it available? I obviously wasn't in the airplane and do not know the situation but unless i have no other alternative i would rather be a pilot then a passenger. Brian I think the problem is quite the opposite. Many more would be alive had they pulled the chute. Pull early, pull often. Nobody ever died pulling the chute within design parameters. Many have died attempting an engine out landing. 2 Quote
DaV8or Posted May 16, 2014 Report Posted May 16, 2014 I think the problem is quite the opposite. Many more would be alive had they pulled the chute. Pull early, pull often. Nobody ever died pulling the chute within design parameters. Many have died attempting an engine out landing. YES! This is now being realized. Cirrus training is now teaching (so I've read on web forums) pull soon, rather than later and don't worry so much about "saving the airplane". The results of this training seems favorable. The, "Man up, be a good stick and land the plane on the wheels!" attitude has gotten many Cirrus pilots killed. It's stupid attitude IMO. Resistance to advancements in technology is really staggering in the pilot population. Apparently, the only tech they find non threatening is iPads. Quote
mike_elliott Posted May 16, 2014 Report Posted May 16, 2014 Nobody ever died pulling the chute within design parameters. I believe Dr. Bob Eddess did. Quote
AndyFromCB Posted May 16, 2014 Report Posted May 16, 2014 I believe Dr. Bob Eddess did. I'm interested in the details. I guess never say never. Do you have a link to NTSB file. Thanks, Andy Quote
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