Electronic Ignition for the M20K

[jackn]

I was speaking with a representative of Ameritech Aviation at Sun-n-Fun, he said that they would be announcing support for the electroair Electronic Ignition System for the TSIO360 on Mooney M20Ks at Oshkosh. It will fire two times, 71,000 volts, first on the compression stroke with timing varying from 20 BTC to 39 BTC and again on the exhaust stroke. The list price of $49,000 (less a usual 15%) will not make me run right out and get it, but I like the idea of the support for Mooney. I got a lot of inquiries from the vendors about Mooney, there seems to be a lot of good wishes.

[carusoam]

$49k, Jack?

Just checking...

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

49K? That's worth more than the engine....

Heck, that's more than some of the actual aircraft...

[jackn]

$49k, yes, I may have mis-heard.

[triple8s]

Good thing air planes were invented in the early part of the previous century they'd of been illegal to invent nowadays! Lol

[FlyWalt]

I bought my whole airplane PLUS the first annual it had had in 6 years for less than that!!!!

[larryb]

$5,500 for certified 6 cyl kit on their website.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

4 to 9 k... Much better!

Looks like electronic ignition is getting closer!

I'd like the automotive style starts...

Best regards,

-a-

[jackn]

When he said 49, just figured the worst. I'll probably do it at 4,900. Let you know how it works.

[triple8s]

I see nothing for a 550 TCM

[aviatoreb]

When he said 49, just figured the worst. I'll probably do it at 4,900. Let you know how it works.

 

Hahha…. Four-ta-nine-kay…..  With a good ol' Souther draw.

 

For 5k, I would be interested maybe.  At 49k, not so much.

Did they mention anything about other engines?  TSIO520?

[jackn]

Sorry for the confusion, I was like a kid in a candy store at Lakeland. My head was spinning from all the glass, AoA, etc,etc,$10k for this, $20K for that. I'm sure there working on approvals for as many installs as possible. They going to announce new model support at Oshkosh.

[chrisk]

Assuming this thing cost $4900, what would it cost to install, and what would the benefit be?  I'm having a hard time believing this thing would ever be worth installing.

[DS1980]

Nothing is worth installing from a money standpoint. The benefit would be a maximizing efficiency at all RPM ranges.

[carusoam]

What we would be looking for in an electronically controlled ignition system...

1) ease of starting...(adjustable timing for the start phase)

2) ease of setting the timing... (20 or 25.0 or 22.5, depending on OAT?

3) error checking... (The yellow check engine light, with a boat load of actual data being delivered)

4) reliability and longevity in a modern sense(TBO= 2000 hours, 500 at least, thanks Dave!)

Required hardware...

1) Shaft position sensor (high quality, non wearing, optical device)

1.5) intake temp

1.6) MAF???

2) computer box

3) modified Magneto to accept sensor and computer input.

Follow up questions...

Would we electronically control half of the plugs and use a standard magneto to operate the other half?

If we use this split control technique, would we electronically control all the top plugs?

Would we be confident enough in electronic systems to go all in with two electronically controlled magnetos?

Is there a back up if the electronic system fails, the magneto reverts to standard operation?

I have recently swapped out the shaft sensor and distributor of a mid nineties auto with 190k miles on it...

I'm not a trained mechanic. The results are surprisingly good!

Thinking out loud,

-a-

[DaV8or]

$49,000 may be the price they have for the whole engine with the electronic ignition installed. Their site says they are also an engine rebuilder.

 

I much prefer the P-Mag solution, but alas. It is only for experiementals. If it were available for Mooneys I would be buying them now instead of paying to have my mags rebuilt this year. The big advantages for me would be easier starting, greater reliability (in theory), easier servicing and long life, all the way to TBO. The increased fuel efficiencies are a nice side benefit, but pretty small, so I wouldn't get them just to save money on gas.

[RocketAviator]

I'm very interested in electronic ignition for the 520NB would get a good one in a heartbeat. I know GAMI is working on one and the service I have received from them would put them top on my list to do business with.

[jetdriven]

GAMI is working on the PRISM which is a full FADEC system. Much more involved setup.

The electroair I researched quite a bit when we stuffed a new motor in our sled. It varies timing solely on manifold pressure, below 24" and down to 16" it advanced timing to 16 degrees above base. So at altitudes above 6k the advanced timing and may yield more efficiency but no certified airplane has verified that. Of course the super hot spark the electroair provides means basically that mag is along for the ride.

I asked them to sponsor me in a season of air races and they declined. Now that I'm knocking on 200 MPh I may try them again.

[DaV8or]

I'm very interested in electronic ignition for the 520NB would get a good one in a heartbeat. I know GAMI is working on one and the service I have received from them would put them top on my list to do business with.

 

Don't hold your breath on the GAMI unit. They have been working on that about as long as I have been a pilot. They're either stuck, out of money, or are in no hurry to bring it to market. Besides the rigorous FAA certification issues, there is load of liability exposure associated with ignition systems I would imagine.

[1964-M20E]

I'd put electronic full electronic EFII Systems ignition and fuel injection on my plane in a heartbeat if I could.

If you are able to gain close 2GPH savings if you fly around 80 hours a year it will pay for itself in about 6 years +/-.

 

I do get aggravated with the FA on what they won’t let us do.

 

I am considering the elector air or something like it. I was talking with the rep at SnF but the one thing I forgot to ask is how the system handles operations when less than 25BTC is needed since the reaming mag would be fixed at that timing.  Obviously the fixed mag would start the burning the then the electronic would finish it.

[cujet]

On a turbonormalized engine, operating at sea level manifold pressures, ideal ignition timing won't be far off the magneto's setting. An electronic ignition won't have much room to optimize the combustion efficiency. 

 

Contrast that with a normally aspirated engine at 12,500 feet, running 17 inches manifold pressure. The ideal timing in that situation may be as much as 40 degrees advance. A big improvement in efficiency over the fixed 20 degrees of a magneto. 

[carusoam]

Cujet,

That is a pretty large, interesting difference.

Any idea where that data comes from? Is it from the automotive world?

I'd like to see improvements in cruise efficiency. That kind of data, could lead to wide spread electronic ignition adoption.

Best regards,

-a-

[orionflt]

the price is up there a bit, but the improved efficiency has peaked my interest. I run my C between 7.5 and 10.5 so if the info rings true i would benefit.

 

Brian

[DaV8or]

I'd put electronic full electronic EFII Systems ignition and fuel injection on my plane in a heartbeat if I could.

If you are able to gain close 2GPH savings if you fly around 80 hours a year it will pay for itself in about 6 years +/-.

 

2 gph isn't going to happen. Remember, EFI systems are being run right now on our engines in the experimental world. It is a known quantity. The savings seem to be around 5 to 8% improvement in fuel efficiency. Due to reliability issues, many in the experimental community have gone back to magnetos. 

[carusoam]

Data is the key.

Our engines.

The way we fly.

Our maintenance.

Our expectations.

I fly at LOP power levels to save 2gph. The cost is 10 kts.

Experimentals are aviation, but they are not neccesarily or directly related to what we cherish. We would need to know why they chose EFI and again why they went back. What didn't work as expected?

Some EAA guys really enjoy high power projects. Some like lowest cost to fly. Some take efficiency further than we do, and line up in tandem fashion. Not only their tales are backwards, their whole plane is backwards! See the Long EZ as an example.

Best regards,

-a-