Am I crazy?

[Conrad]

First Post Mooneyspace! Here's the deal. I want to buy a plane, specifically a C. Problem is I don't have a pilot's license (yet). First off I'd like to recognize the obviousness of this being crazy. That is probably part of the appeal, as I tend to live pretty conservatively otherwise. I understand that renting a plane is quite a bit more economical and low risk for a starting pilot, but I loves machines. I love the idea of working on the plane -- figuring out what it needs in terms of preventative maintenance, helping a mechanic with annuals -- in general building a relationship with the machine that's going to keep me in the air.

 

If I have the plane ferried to a local airstrip, will I be able to find a CFI who will be willing to give me flight lessons in the plane? Right now I'm spending my weekends (more or less) poring over flight training documents, learning up on engine mechanics and avionics systems, looking through listings for partnerships and whole planes. All this in itself is more or less it's own reward, but what drives me up the wall is the idea that I could actually do it. I have a little less than $2000/mo. to play with, good credit, and am looking for an IFR equipped C around or under 50k. I figure I need maybe $12k cash saved up to cover down payment, pre-buy, ferrying, and other incidentals around the purchase without going broke.

 

Have I lost my marbles? I would love to hear (or be pointed to) the stories of anyone who has done something like this.

 

EDIT: With all your valuable feedback and information about some of your experiences, I think I've made my decision, which is NOT to attempt to do this. I am still considering the idea of buying a less formidable aircraft in which to learn, though not because I think it will be a cheaper of faster way to get my license. Still excited!

[Rwsavory]

Yes, you can do that. And yes, you have lost your marbles. Sounds like fun to me. Tell us where you are located, and you might find a lead on a CFI.

[Conrad]

Thanks, that's hard to google and good to know! I'm in San Francisco, CA. There seems to be a pretty good listing here: http://www.oaklandflyers.com/instructors/

[Cruiser]

many have bought airplanes to learn to fly. I did it, owned a PA28-140 before I took my first lesson.

 

Are you committed? Will you have time allocated on a regular basis? 

Most importantly, can you pass an aviation medical? This might sound funny but before you commit any money, go get a student pilot medical, they are good for two years. Then get started with your training.

[BigTex]

Do you have any flight training? I personally would take that $2000/month and put it toward your flying lessons. Then when you get your PPl, then look at purchasing an airplane. Better to beat up someone else's plane.

[TTaylor]

Welcome to flying and I hope you continue on to own a Mooney someday.  That said I will be the realist, go find a good club or FBO and rent a simple trainer for your rating.  You will be able to focus on the training and not have to worry about upkeep. Just learning to fly is enough at first without all the complex issues of a constant speed prop and landing gear.    A C-150/152  or 162 is much more forgiving for the first 50 landings you will need to do to get used to flying.

 

Once you have the rating reward yourself with a Mooney .

 

South Bay

 

http://flystanford.com/stanford_club.html

 

East Bay

 

http://flyingparticles.org/ 

[carusoam]

One question....

Did you buy a car, then learn to drive?

You can. most don't.

It's not financially conservative.

Maybe you like financial risk more than others.

Why would you say this makes sense to you?

It might be very sensible for the right person...

Maybe YOU are the right person...? Or just crazy...

Go do your homework and then come back...

Best regards,

-a-

[Skybrd]

I think your idea is ok. I have no idea what your background is concerning aviation but having your own airplane should motivate you to get your license and continue. I did the same think over 40 years ago and bought a Piper Tripacer with the money I aquired from selling my toys (boat, ham radio set, truck and tax refund money). I had people call me crazy for buying a airplane before having a license and also told me that only rich people can have an airplane. One thing beside putting your motivation in high gear is the money you save from using rented planes. When you get your new license, you will already have something to fly. You might want to consider a lesser plane such as a Tripacer to get your license since the Mooney is more demanding. Anyway good luck and enjoy your adventure.

[M20FTraveler]

Sure it's crazy.  This afternoon, I brought home the M20F I purchased earlier this week.  I don't have my license, either.  I have been taking lessons for quite awhile, though, and expect to take my checkride soon (it's been rescheduled seven times due to weather).  I found the plane that fit what I wanted and pulled the trigger.  Just get started and have fun looking for what you want.

[Conrad]

First off, thanks for all the interest! The response seems to be quite clear: it can be done. The question is: is it a good idea?

 

@Cruiser: This is great advice I think I will definitely go get an aviation medical, as what is more or less certain is that one way or another I'd like to get a license in less than a year.

 

@TTaylor: I hadn't thought about it, but you're right, I'm sure that learning in a plane is bound to give it a few hard knocks. If it were my own equipment, however, I'd have a lot of extra incentive to minimize them, perhaps with some extra homework and perhaps simulation time prior to my first lessons.

 

To the two people who have trained in their own craft, did hard knocks cause many problems?

 

@carusoam: I am generally quite fiscally conservative. This action would be unquestionably non-conservative. This would be a risk, an adventure. Even if I make mistakes, even if the experience isn't a good one on the whole, I find it hard to imagine it being and experience I'd regret having had.

 

As for commitment, that's the big question. I like nothing more than the idea of having a plane, but what would I really do with it once all was said and done? When would I fly, with who, where to? These are questions I am still asking myself.

[Conrad]

@M20FTraveler: Dammit, I'm jealous. Congratulations!!

[Conrad]

@Skybrd There is very little I like more than a good challenge.

[Rwsavory]

Sure it's crazy.  This afternoon, I brought home the M20F I purchased earlier this week.  I don't have my license, either.  I have been taking lessons for quite awhile, though, and expect to take my checkride soon (it's been rescheduled seven times due to weather).  I found the plane that fit what I wanted and pulled the trigger.  Just get started and have fun looking for what you want.

 

Nice!  Post some pictures.

[DonMuncy]

I think insurance is likely to be your limiting factor. I would talk to an insurance broker and see what kind of coverage you can get while you are learning. 

[Conrad]

@M20FTraveler: How was the insurance situation for you buying without a private license? Or will you not get insurance/fly the plane until you get your certificate?

[DaveL]

I bought my C before I'd completed my PPL. I was able to get insurance, but the policy was written such that I had to fly with an instructor until receiving my PPL. I however took  my training in C-152s and C-172s, and I'm glad I did. There is a lot to deal with the first half at least of PPL training, and it's easy to get flustered. I think if I'd started off in the Mooney I'd have had to spend more money and taken longer to get my PPL, and certainly put more stress on the plane with the less than perfect landings that studying and simulation won't prepare you for.

 

I brought my airplane home by finding a very helpful CFI here (on this forum) that flew commercial with me to pick up the plane, and then I got to fly it back. It was a great experience! I also did fly the Mooney with the CFI a few times outside of my regular flight lessons to build time in it. Once I got my PPL it only took a few more flights in the C before I got the complex endorsement.

[HopePilot]

I wouldn't learn to fly in a plane that was mine.  I'd rather beat up someone else's.  Also, a Mooney is going to be less forgiving than brand C or P with things happening a lot faster.  I don't think it's a great idea, although it might work out for you.  I don't believe it would be a sound idea for most people, so not knowing you I can only generalize.  I do think it would be a great idea to buy one after you have 150 hours under your belt.  Take this advice in the consideration of what it cost you.

[rbridges]

check insurance, too.  You may have a hard time finding coverage w/o a PPL.  If you do, it will probably be pretty high.  Getting a mooney is not a bad idea, but you should fly a few planes and see if it fits your needs.

[Rhumbline]

It is quite possible to buy a high performance aircraft and learn to fly in it.  I am personally acquainted with spouses or children who have learned to fly in their family members' Bonanza, Skylane, etc.  That having been said, however, it sounds as if you may be more excited about buying a plane than flying one.  It doesn't sound as if you have had much if any instruction and it is not clear whether you have spent any time in a light aircraft.  If not, you'd certainly be well advised to make certain that flying is something you are comforatble with and truly wish to do.  I consider any advice to start taking lessons and worry about buying a plane down the road good advice.  Your investment in your training and competency will far outstrip any value you place on the "adventure" and your attitude toward risk should be to as nearly as is possible eliminate it. 

 

If you do choose to buy a Mooney or other high performance plane to learn in, on the other hand, you may wish to mull a few things over.  Others have metioned some of them above.  Obviously, you are now on the prowl for an instructor.  When I was an instructor, I was never approached by anyone seeking primary instruction in a high performance aircraft.  I cannot say whether I would have accepted a student under the circumstace as it would have depended much on both the individual and the airplane.  I can say with all certainty, however, that that student would not have soloed, been let loose on cross-countries or recommended without a helluva lot of additional training and I'd be suspicious of any instructor who claimed he could get you certificated without a significant amount of additional instruction.

 

One thing that was plain when I was an instructor was that students who had the time, resources and motivation to conduct their training without substantial interruption performed better and completed in less time.  Scheduling, weather and the like are large enough obstacles to overcome during training.  In the clubs,  schools and FBO's I was associated with, mechanicals were often easily resolved as there was a mechanic available to keep the trainers flying or another plane was usually available.  When you walk out to your own plane for your lesson and find a flat tire, fuel or oil leaking or a dead battery, you're done until it's corrected.  I can tell you that, having purchased a plane of a similar vintage and price range to that you're seeking, you will, in all probability, have some down time during the first year.  The most frustrating thing for me has been the time involved.  Experiences differ, I'm sure, but I usually have to schedule maintenance days or weeks in advance and the delays in completeing these are sometimes maddening.  I would not deal with this if earning my certificate.

 

Your enthusiasm is admirable and I do not wish to be a wet blanket.  It's my opinion, though, that you'll be much happier if you focus on earning your certificate without the burdens of ownership and additional training while keeping a weather eye out for the airplane you want as you go.          

[skibum3d]

I've been down this path recently, in a round-about way.  Right now, I'm the sole owner of my M20C, but that wasn't the plan in the beginning. First, a little background.  In the middle of this year I had about 230 hours total time, 15 hours of complex time, well over 50 hours of cross country and night time, and I'd had my PPL for over a decade.  I'd sold off my half share of a Cherokee 160 a few years before and was ready to jump back in to ownership.  One of my co-workers had been talking for a few years about getting his license, but never took any action for financial reasons.  Suddenly though, he had a project go well and he found himself in a place to make getting a license feasible. After running the numbers he decided that it was cheaper to buy and learn than to rent and learn, especially if the plan was to buy after getting a license anyway.

 

Fast forward a few months -- we test flew the bird I now own, and both fell in love with it.  We put in an offer and had a handshake contract in place the same day.  The next week we looked for insurance, along with a few other odds and ends.  The first broker we called literally laughed when we mentioned that my partner would be training in the M20C.  He then said "there's absolutely no way I can insure a student pilot in a Mooney."  We called another broker, and another, and heard the same story.  We went through approximately 15 brokers and underwriters, and ultimately found two that were "willing" to insure a student pilot in an M20C.  The better of the two offers literally required 220 hours of dual time for the new student before solo, and the price was more than double what it'd cost to insure just me.  (I didn't come away unscathed either.  Despite my time and complex hours, I still had to have 10 hours dual and 5 hours solo in an M20 before I was insured to carry passengers.)

 

Long story short, my would-be Mooney partner now owns a 1967 Cessna 150, and was able to insure it for about 66% of the cost of my solo Mooney insurance.  His plan is to become a future half owner of my bird when he's got his license and a complex endorsement. I wish you good luck, (and for what it's worth our best insurance ultimately came from AOPA insurance,) but don't be discouraged from getting your PPL if you can't get it in a Mooney.  

[IndyTim]

rad -

 

I starting flight training in fall of 2012.  I travel extensively, and therefore had numerous challenges in completing my PPL, but managed to knock it out by this past July.  During that time I flew rentals - Cessna 150s and 152 for about $80-90/hr wet (including fuel).  Prices may be higher (probably are) in your end of the country.

 

I also acquired a Mooney, a 252, about 10 days prior to completing my PPL.  I did not use it to complete my PPL, obviously.

 

I was fortunate that the person who sold me my Mooney was also a CFI-II and we worked transition training into the deal.  He signed off on both my complex and high-performance endorsements which I accomplished in my Mooney, post-PPL.  It worked out well for me. 

 

Insurance was obviously a factor.  I was able to get quotes, prior to my having my PPL, but the underwriters included clauses that required a certain number of hours (20) dual instruction before I could fly solo or carry pax, once I had my PPL. I felt like the rates were pretty good, especially given my inexperience.

 

Since I was (and still am) pretty green, I continued to fly frequently with instructors in my plane as I expand my personal limits.  Additionally, I pretty much went straight into IFR training, in order to continue the learning curve. There have been a whole series of "levels" that I've gotten through as I've expanded my skill set: there are no end to the challenges in flying.

 

So, getting a plane, and getting it insured, prior to getting one's PPL can be done (YMMV).   But, if I had to do it over I would not do it any differently: I would not buy a Mooney to train in.  There is way too much complexity and you need to learn basic stick skills, basic power management, landing techniques, night landings, how to handle cross winds, not to mention how to navigate airspace and talk with ATC.  There is a whole bunch of knowledge and skill required.  If I had to do all that while managing my Mooney, with prop, and cowling, gear, autopilot, engine temp management, etc etc I'm sure I would have been overwhelmed and possibly discouraged.  It's taken me quite a while to begin to get comfortable landing it since it is slippery and managing speed is essential:  with the Cessnas you dial in flaps and they drop like rocks and almost land themselves.

 

I'd also just go fly!  And hang out at the FBO or flight school, get to know as many pilots as you can, maybe get a chance to see, sit in, or even fly in as many planes as you can. 

 

 

 

[201er]

I wouldn't wanna own the aircraft I trained in!

[nels]

I personally would say the best thing for you to do would be to get your license in something like a Cessna 150 then look for a Mooney. As several have mentioned, insurance will be the determining factor. You might consider buying a 150 to get your ticket. This will give you some insight on owning a plane and may be a better financial decision if you buy right. Sell it when you are ready and buy a Mooney.

I understand your excitement about owning a Mooney, I went through the same thing recently. I got my ppl about thirty years ago in a 150. I flew a couple years and stopped. I always wanted a mooney so about two yrs ago I bought a 66 E model afetr I decided I wanted to start flying again. What surprised me is that insurance was reasonable since I had my ppl even though I was not current and had no time in a sophisticated aircraft. The requirement was 15 hrs of dual time plus ten more to take passengers. These guys here have mentioned the problems learning to fly in a complex aircraft and they are right. The Mooney is more than a handful for me. I think I will be well over twenty hrs before I feel capable of flying it alone and I have prior experience in the Cessna and recent experience in a small Beach.

[Oscar Avalle]

No, i don't think you are crazier than the rest of us. Just be careful

[JediNein]

Are you in San Francisco proper or more towards San Jose? If San Jose, I know an excellent instructor there who has trained dozens of aircraft owner pilots from zero hours to their certificates in the high performance hot rods including Mooneys. It can be done and done safely with an experienced flight instructor who can see your mistakes coming and is able to prevent them from causing aircraft damage. Absolutely learn in the plane you will own. You will be far more experienced in it when you are flying solo and with passengers, and you have the benefit of making the new-in-type mistakes with an instructor who can show you how to correct and prevent those mistakes.

 

If you find an instructor that doesn't know how to land a Mooney safely, nor teach you how to land without flat-spotting tires, porposing, and other costly mistakes, this will not go well and you are better off learning in someone else's plane.

 

Welcome to the aviation world!