I'm off for the dreaded 44709 check ride tomorrow!

[rainman]

Lacee, glad this is behind you. Now fly that bad boy over to Burnet on Saturday and meet with the other Texas Mooney maniacs. Ray

[N601RX]

I'm glad everything worked out for Lacey.  However I think this brings up an important point for new owners or owners who take a hands off approach and depends their shop to keep them out of trouble.  There are some AD's that are not calendar based and based strictly on time in service.  Some of these are as for apart as 500 hrs and the IA may see that it is still 75 hrs away and that you only flew the plane 30 hrs last year so he may let it go until next year.  If you fly more this year than last year, then you may go over.  Others are as short as 50 or 100 hrs and may have to be complied with a couple of times a year.  ELT battery replacement and transponder cert is also something that can come up midyear for some if you haven't purposely worked it out so it falls on the same month as your annual. Its up to you as the owner/pilot to know when these come due.  Most good IA's would point these out to you at your annual and make notes on the AD compliance sheet to remind you.

[N33GG]

Im glad YOUR OK N6719N! Still instructing? I know a number of instructors who said "it aint worth it" because of things like insurance repercussions, FAA actions, lawsuits, etc. I'm pretty picky now because of it all, and I have not experienced the dark side of anything yet.

 

After many years of instructing from primary to advanced ratings, helping people become pilots, helping good pilots become better pilots, no, I am not instructing any more.  A lot of great memories, thousands of hours in the air, great friendships, and that is all history.  If I was 21 years old and had nothing to lose, I would still do it.  But I have had a successful life, and am on the other end of the curve, and don't want to risk losing it all and starting over at this age.  Also, as much as I love flying and instructing, it would not be fair to my family that relies on me, and this is truly a bigger concern. 

 

My incident was a real wake up call from many more angles than just the FAA.  (I handled my check ride just fine.  The FSDO inspector that was assigned to me was very professional and I think he could tell I was a pretty competent pilot and instructor.)  I thank God every day that nobody was physically injured. 

 

I am confident of my flying skills and ability to do everything by the book.  But things can and do happen, airplanes do have mechanical failures, people (including me) make mistakes, and the risk is not zero.  If you fly or instruct long enough, the odds are you will be in one of these situations eventually.  Whether it is minor or major, you can be in for a storm of problems.  Dark side may be an understatement, especially if you have any wealth.  You may be shocked at how fast people and  companies that you have helped for years turn against you.   

 

FWIW YMMV etc. etc. etc.

[jlunseth]

I'm glad everything worked out for Lacey.  However I think this brings up an important point for new owners or owners who take a hands off approach and depends their shop to keep them out of trouble.  There are some AD's that are not calendar based and based strictly on time in service.  Some of these are as for apart as 500 hrs and the IA may see that it is still 75 hrs away and that you only flew the plane 30 hrs last year so he may let it go until next year.  If you fly more this year than last year, then you may go over.  Others are as short as 50 or 100 hrs and may have to be complied with a couple of times a year.  ELT battery replacement and transponder cert is also something that can come up midyear for some if you haven't purposely worked it out so it falls on the same month as your annual. Its up to you as the owner/pilot to know when these come due.  Most good IA's would point these out to you at your annual and make notes on the AD compliance sheet to remind you.

 

Very good point.  A friend recently went for a checkride, his A&P had gotten away from producing AD Compliance Reports unless asked, and he needed one for the checkride.  The report indicated that the Bendix ignition switch AD that most of us have to comply with had been done at the last annual, but the owner realized it is a 100 hr. check and he typically flies at least 100 hrs. each year.  You can bet he was on top of that AD in a New York minute.  You are responsible for the airworthiness of your aircraft, don't rely on your A&P.

[RocketAviator]

I'm glad everything worked out for Lacey.  However I think this brings up an important point for new owners or owners who take a hands off approach and depends their shop to keep them out of trouble.  There are some AD's that are not calendar based and based strictly on time in service.  Some of these are as for apart as 500 hrs and the IA may see that it is still 75 hrs away and that you only flew the plane 30 hrs last year so he may let it go until next year.  If you fly more this year than last year, then you may go over.  Others are as short as 50 or 100 hrs and may have to be complied with a couple of times a year.  ELT battery replacement and transponder cert is also something that can come up midyear for some if you haven't purposely worked it out so it falls on the same month as your annual. Its up to you as the owner/pilot to know when these come due.  Most good IA's would point these out to you at your annual and make notes on the AD compliance sheet to remind you.

N601RX, well said. I thought I had taken a hands on approach and an active role and even more so by obtaining counsel for this matter.  Full disclosure Counsel did recommend I do the check ride in a rental aircraft... I choose not to..  A fool is a person who engages sound Counsel and then does not follow said Sound Counsel advice... I know "I R 1" but back to your point.  Additionally I depending on an A&P who has become a friend of mine over the years for what turned out to be a critical element.  Bottom line just like the incident itself where I was under the direction of a paid CFII the responsibility as owners of planes are simply and solely ours in almost every case (some rare exceptions maybe)!!!  Like the FAA guy told me something like, it is unfortunate that you have to depend on others for something you are ultimately totally and singularly responsible for without the direct ability or authority to correct the issue yourself!

 

But again I digress, I made a personal commitment after the incident to actively pursue and grow not only my piloting skills but my knowledge of my aircraft not just to the mediocre level of a Pilot (wow bet I get hammered over that comment) but a goal of a level of an Aviator! (Aviator according to a recent article that defined the difference between a Pilot and an Aviator) .  That goal has now been modified to include a much greater level of involvement particularly in the area of AD compliance and history of my aircrafts total legal requirements.  For example I learned a great deal more than I knew when I started both from the FAA and the very kind people who supported me from Mooneyspace about Time in Service, AD compliance etc.  

 

Owning and flying an airplane I relate to something like The Legal System & or my favorite Taxes... If you lived to be a 1000 years old you could never learn all there is to know about the rules and regulations and compliance and what is allowable and what is not..  I think the main reason is that the guidelines and rules are like much a lot in life, not absolutely defined and it sometimes depends!!  Hope all this rambling makes a hint of sense to someone other than just me!

 

Oh did I mention that the day before Thanksgiving I found out I am under an IRS audit for 2011.... yea it going to be a year to remember alright....

 

Fly safe,

Rocket On.

[RocketAviator]

After many years of instructing from primary to advanced ratings, helping people become pilots, helping good pilots become better pilots, no, I am not instructing any more.  A lot of great memories, thousands of hours in the air, great friendships, and that is all history.  If I was 21 years old and had nothing to lose, I would still do it.  But I have had a successful life, and am on the other end of the curve, and don't want to risk losing it all and starting over at this age.  Also, as much as I love flying and instructing, it would not be fair to my family that relies on me, and this is truly a bigger concern. 

 

My incident was a real wake up call from many more angles than just the FAA.  (I handled my check ride just fine.  The FSDO inspector that was assigned to me was very professional and I think he could tell I was a pretty competent pilot and instructor.)  I thank God every day that nobody was physically injured. 

 

I am confident of my flying skills and ability to do everything by the book.  But things can and do happen, airplanes do have mechanical failures, people (including me) make mistakes, and the risk is not zero.  If you fly or instruct long enough, the odds are you will be in one of these situations eventually.  Whether it is minor or major, you can be in for a storm of problems.  Dark side may be an understatement, especially if you have any wealth.  You may be shocked at how fast people and  companies that you have helped for years turn against you.   

 

FWIW YMMV etc. etc. etc.

N6719N well said but so sad!  This got me to thinking.  This is a great example of how NOT to get the best out of our society by not encouraging the best of the best like yourself who have the most to contribute and help the rest of us who really could benefit!  The fact is that this is the case in much of our society where success from hard work and diligent effort is not rewarded but discouraged by the probability of it being jepordized when one is only trying to help someone else.    Maybe this is the best reason I could think of for someone not throwing a CFII under the FAA bus so to speak!

 

Fly safe,

[carusoam]

So, do you have a good accountant???

The older you get the more complex other things get. Seek professional help.

And then use the help...

Sunny-er days are just around the corner, but don't let your guard down....

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

After many years of instructing from primary to advanced ratings, helping people become pilots, helping good pilots become better pilots, no, I am not instructing any more.  A lot of great memories, thousands of hours in the air, great friendships, and that is all history.  If I was 21 years old and had nothing to lose, I would still do it.  But I have had a successful life, and am on the other end of the curve, and don't want to risk losing it all and starting over at this age.  Also, as much as I love flying and instructing, it would not be fair to my family that relies on me, and this is truly a bigger concern. 

 

My incident was a real wake up call from many more angles than just the FAA.  (I handled my check ride just fine.  The FSDO inspector that was assigned to me was very professional and I think he could tell I was a pretty competent pilot and instructor.)  I thank God every day that nobody was physically injured. 

 

I am confident of my flying skills and ability to do everything by the book.  But things can and do happen, airplanes do have mechanical failures, people (including me) make mistakes, and the risk is not zero.  If you fly or instruct long enough, the odds are you will be in one of these situations eventually.  Whether it is minor or major, you can be in for a storm of problems.  Dark side may be an understatement, especially if you have any wealth.  You may be shocked at how fast people and  companies that you have helped for years turn against you.   

 

FWIW YMMV etc. etc. etc.

 

I have known a lot of great instructors ran out by the "dark side" of their passion. To help mitigate, I now require all my paying students to list me as named insured with a waiver of subrogation. Insurance companies don't like it, but will do it. It takes away their "hedge". Now it doesn't provide complete protection, but does help put one more arsenal of lawyers in the instructor's corner if the caca hits the prop. Just recently, I have had one insurance company not want to do this without charging the owner extra, so now the ball is in the owners corner if he wants instruction from my LLC or not.

The risk is real for what amounts to about $15-$20. actual hour of revenue when you get right down to it. No wonder we are a dying breed.

[mike_elliott]

Like the FAA guy told me something like, it is unfortunate that you have to depend on others for something you are ultimately totally and singularly responsible for without the direct ability or authority to correct the issue yourself!

 

 

Oh did I mention that the day before Thanksgiving I found out I am under an IRS audit for 2011.... yea it going to be a year to remember alright....

 

Fly safe,

Rocket On.

 

This sucks.. happened to me a couple of years ago the day before thanksgiving also. I ended up owing the government less than $5 for some sales tax on shipping, but they took a week or so to come up with it.

 

As far as having to depend on the work of others and be totally responsible for it without the ability to correct it, that also happened to me once in my early work years. I quit as soon as I found out what was happening, in spite of the great pay. But this is what great fall guys are made of!

[jlunseth]

Well, I am more than understanding of the problem that pilots are the person responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft but cannot do most of the work themselves, therefore must rely on someone else.  That seems harsh, yes.  Just remember that the A&P is not the person in the aircraft at FL210 and with his family in the other seats.  That is us.  Far harsher than the regs. is having an incident in that environment, having to deal with it, and (knock on wood) not having it work out very well. My experience, unfortunately, is that the majority of A&P's are going to try to kill you at some point, they don't mean to of course, but whatever internal mechanism they have that catches mistakes just happens not to work very well.  So I have become very very very picky about who does even the routine work on my aircraft.  Out of the several mechanics in my area that I have tried, only one has not tried to kill me.  I don't even trust oil changes to anyone else.  They are probably more expensive in the sense that they do not let anything slide, they catch it all and I have to fix it whatever the cost.  That, to me, is far better than the alternative.

 

All that said, from a policy making standpoint, if you are the maker of the regs. and you want to cut down on the number of mechanical incidents caused by A&P mistakes, you find a way to at least allow pilots to report them without consequences to their own ticket. 

[larryb]

Are airline pilots responsible to know all AD compliance on their Boeing?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[N601RX]

I have known a lot of great instructors ran out by the "dark side" of their passion. To help mitigate, I now require all my paying students to list me as named insured with a waiver of subrogation. Insurance companies don't like it, but will do it. It takes away their "hedge". Now it doesn't provide complete protection, but does help put one more arsenal of lawyers in the instructor's corner if the caca hits the prop. Just recently, I have had one insurance company not want to do this without charging the owner extra, so now the ball is in the owners corner if he wants instruction from my LLC or not.

The risk is real for what amounts to about $15-$20. actual hour of revenue when you get right down to it. No wonder we are a dying breed.

I completely understand your position and reasoning on this, but there also another side to doing that for the owner/pilot. He no longer has 1M of coverage, there is 1M to be shared between the instructor and pilot. If the jury found that each was negligent for 750k, the pilot would be on the hook for $250k. If the instructor was not listed, then the pilot would have enought coverage to cover the claim.

For smaller claims such as gearups ect it protects both without any problems. If there ever is a large claim, it could leave the owner underinsured.

[mike_elliott]

I completely understand your position and reasoning on this, but there also another side to doing that for the owner/pilot. He no longer has 1M of coverage, there is 1M to be shared between the instructor and pilot. If the jury found that each was negligent for 750k, the pilot would be on the hook for $250k. If the instructor was not listed, then the pilot would have enought coverage to cover the claim.

For smaller claims such as gearups ect it protects both without any problems. If there ever is a large claim, it could leave the owner underinsured.

 I guess its up to the student to make sure he is adequately insured in his mind, then. The other way is for the instructor to buy a Non owned policy, Which, at a 600K hull value (about what the acclaim I instruct in hull value) would cost somewhere around 6K per year and pass that on. Now instruction rates would have to skyrocket. Bottom line, Instruction is for the benefit of the owner, and cost should be borne by the owner for this. I am personally not going to assume the risk without it. I am sure there are those instructors that will, and I certainly am not going to deny them the opportunity to expose their family and net worth to fate of an owner PIC who may do something to put this all at risk, its just not for me.

When both the instructor and owner are on the same policy, it also eliminates one set of lawyers, and the resultant expenses and bickering, also.

[cliffy]

This is an interesting thread as it deals in part (a/c maintenance) with an article I just wrote for "The Mooney Flyer" e magazine ( www.themooneyflyer.com ).

As to the question of airline pilots having to know about the AD status, they don't. As the rule we operate under is found in Part 91 not Part 121 (for airlines). Part 91 (for us) in 91.403 states the following-

91.403   General.

(a) The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition, 

 

It does no good to try to blame a maintenance shop or A&P if you miss an AD on your airplane.

The owner is responsible, period!  ( I know, I know, the word period has a bad connotation today :-)

 

I will paste the article I wrote below for those that might be interested, it's also Mooney focused.

 

 

ARE YOU SHAKING YOUR TAIL?

 

How One Question Can Lead to another and another and another-

 

I received a call from a local shop asking me to look at a Mooney that was in the shop. They are not Mooney experts and much to their credit, they know their limitations. I got to the airport and walked around the Mooney to the tail where the other mechanics were standing. One of them asked, “Is this normal?” and proceeded to move the tip of the tail up and down which was accompanied by a loud “click” “clunk” with the tip moving almost a half inch in both up and down and fore and aft directions.  Hmmmmmm!

 

Of course, all of us know what causes this, right?

 

They had the tail cover plates off and I went over and held my finger on the tail mount bolts and then had them move the tail again. Sure enough, I could feel movement in the bolt bushing area. On closer examination I could see a gray discoloration around the bolt head area and no evidence of any lubrication in the area. In fact everything I looked at in the tail area showed no evidence of lubrication!

 

I suggested that they not fly it until the wear was repaired and I asked (here’s the first question) “who does your maintenance?” The airplane is not based here year round. I was told that a local shop in another state has done the annual for several years. After a little chit chat I mentioned that I felt that the airplane had not been properly lubricated for some time and I asked (here’s question number 2) “How much do you fly this every year?” The answer, “Somewhere around 200 hours a year.”   Hmmmmmmmm!

 

I then asked (here’s question number 3), do you do the lubrication AD every 100 hours”

The answer, “We do an annual every year.”   Hmmmmmmmm!

 

Next question (here’s number 4), do you know about the lubrication AD? “No, our mechanic does an annual every year.”  Hmmmmmmm!

 

I’m going to digress a little here to say that this is not the first time I have run into aircraft owners who, for what ever reason, do not know what THEIR legal requirements are when it comes to maintenance on their airplane.

 

To many owners, the mere fact that they have an annual done every year is all that they are responsible for on the maintenance of the plane. Unfortunately that’s not completely correct. Let me quote from FAR Part 91.405-

 

§91.405   Maintenance required.

Each owner or operator of an aircraft—

(a) Shall have that aircraft inspected as prescribed in subpart E of this part and shall between required inspections, except as provided in paragraph © of this section, have discrepancies repaired as prescribed in part 43 of this chapter;

( Shall ensure that maintenance personnel make appropriate entries in the aircraft maintenance records indicating the aircraft has been approved for return to service;

© Shall have any inoperative instrument or item of equipment, permitted to be inoperative by §91.213(d)(2) of this part, repaired, replaced, removed, or inspected at the next required inspection; and

(d) When listed discrepancies include inoperative instruments or equipment, shall ensure that a placard has been installed as required by §43.11 of this chapter.

 

If we go back one paragraph to 91.403 it states-

91.403   General.

(a) The owner or operator of an aircraft is primarily responsible for maintaining that aircraft in an airworthy condition, including compliance with part 39 of this chapter.

 

So as we can see, you as the owner, have more responsibility than just bringing your airplane in for an annual every year. YOU have to manage the maintenance all year long. If you have a recurring AD, like our lubrication AD 73-21-01, and you fly over 100 hours in the year, YOU have to make sure that the AD is done. Your maintenance shop will probably NOT know you are over 100 hours in the year until he sees your plane at the next annual. It’s your responsibility to tell him when the AD is due between annuals. This goes for all recurring ADs, so keep your eyes open.

Back to our story:  After discussing how important lubrication is on a Mooney and how he needed to address the tail bolt issues, he mentioned that they had to jump start the airplane with cables even though they had an external power plug. I asked (here’s question number 5) “Why?” Because the aux plug doesn’t work was the answer. Hmmmmmmm!

It was then volunteered that the airplane had had a gear failure and had been repaired but they thought that the gear doors didn’t close all the way!  Hmmmmmm!

The owner was convinced enough to ground the airplane and start working on the tail hinge. After 8 shop hours of trying to get the bolts out, a screw press was made to carefully push out the bolts. They were completely dry, rusty and worn. New bolts were tried in the holes and the bushings turned out to be good. Only the bolts and the missing washers on those bolts were needed to bring it back to no slop! Hmmmmmm!

The owner then took all the panels off the plane and started to lube everything movable, as it should have been done every 100 hours.

Having my Maintenance Manual handy I showed them the electrical schematic for the external power plug. In trouble shooting it, I found that the external power relay was missing the ground/diode wire from the coil to ground. Easy fix, just no one knew how to fix it. Hmmmmmm!

Now to the gear problems-

With the plane on jacks and the belly open I went to the nose gear first. Fore and aft, left and right lots of play in the vertical bushings and bolt. Twist the tire and way too much play in the steering linkage. In checking the mains I find a little play in the retract linkage but not too bad. OK, lets suck’m up and see what that holds for us.

Sure enough, the mains don’t go all the way up. Short by 2 inches, gear doors not flush at all. And this is just a few months out of an annual inspection! Well, let’s see what the manual extension holds for us- oopps! It doesn’t go down! Turns out that the release lever works but the crank handle won’t crank!

So, let’s recap what I find on the gear:

1)      Nose gear is way worn in the steering linkage and pivot bolt/bushings.

2)      Main wheels don’t retract properly.

3)      Emergency extension doesn’t work.

4)      One frozen Heim joint on the retract bars for the nose gear.

So, the owner now has a new list of items to fix before he can go fly again.

As you can see by this long litany, one question can and will lead to many others when it is noted that there are problems with your airplane. It should be blatantly obvious by now that a maintenance shop has to have specific knowledge of Mooney maintenance practices to be able to do a competent job. The owner “thought” he was getting good maintenance all these years BUT?

And, as an owner, you can’t just live with your head buried in the sand when it comes to aircraft maintenance. Remember, YOU are the one in the airplane and as the owner; you have the legal responsibility to maintain your airplane properly. The more you know, the safer you will be.

Cliff Biggs

ATP, 767,757,737,727, A320, LRJet, CE500, MU-2, Wright Bros Award

A&P 46 Yrs, B707, B727, B720, B747, DC-10, DC9, DC-8, CE500

[jetdriven]

Cliff, I think that qualifies for post of the month on MS !

[RocketAviator]

Well done, I saw the article but had not had time to read it yet.

You have spawned a number of thoughts and items I want to check on for my aircraft....

Thanks great response!

Lacee

[RocketAviator]

Cliff, I think that qualifies for post of the month on MS !

d

Ditto... on the post of the month for MS...

[jetdriven]

Are airline pilots responsible to know all AD compliance on their Boeing?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes the PIC is responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft. However, airlines track these things and the aircraft is released from maintenance when all items are complied with. The real bugaboo for pilots at that level is MEL items. Overfly one of those and it's the same as an AD, bad news.

[scottfromiowa]

Just like reading Coy's magazine.  My take-away: If you don't fly your plane to a Mooney Service Center to have maintenance completed on your vintage Mooney you are getting sub-standard maintenance on your plane and YOU are responsible.

 

Signed,

 

Guilty as charged...

[jetdriven]

I'm guilty as charged too. I do "IA assist" annuals.

[jlunseth]

I came to realize that the problem, after figuring out that you cannot just rely on your A&P, is how to figure out what the AD's are that impact your aircraft.  You can search on the faa.gov website, and probably you will get most or all of the airframe and powerplant AD's, but it is practically impossible to figure out what the "appliance" AD's might be. 

[jetdriven]

go through the AD list your IA signs at annual.  Note when they are due.  You do have an AD list, dont you?

[RocketAviator]

go through the AD list your IA signs at annual.  Note when they are due.  You do have an AD list, dont you?

I do, I have several old ones that the previous owner provided however I had my A&P/ IA print out a fresh one from a subscription service they use!  It had some that were not on the old list and the old list had some that were not on the new list.. I am going through them now to see if I can determine what is the deal!

[jlunseth]

go through the AD list your IA signs at annual.

 

You make my point.  How is it you are going to accomplish the task of making sure your aircraft has all its AD's complied with without relying on your A&P, if to do it you go back to the AD list created by your A&P??

 

The AD is the result of a search, and someone had to put in the search criteria.  If you use the AD list created by your A&P, it was your A&P who did that, so you are relying on your A&P to have searched for the correct things.  In the case of the engine and airframe, that is easy, you can get the necessary information from your POH.  But in the case of your appliances it definitely is not.  As to the engine appliances, the only way I can think of to do it is to go to your type certificate and your STC's and logs and identify each "appliance" in your aircraft by model number, your starter, your alternator, etc.  You may have to do quite a bit of digging through the logs to find out what model Bendix starter is actually in your aircraft, for example.  Then you conduct a search on each of those.  That search is not necessarily simple, because the search starts with the name of the company that supplied the appliance, and sometimes those change over time.  There have been three Mooney companies, there have been more than one "Bendix's".  And how about that panel rebuild, what all did the avionics shop put in.  A Garmin 430?  Better check for AD's on Garmin equipment, there is an old AD on 430's.  How about each King radio and transponder.  Yes, those get AD's also.  Did your A&P think to search those things?  Doubtful he caught all of them.  In fact, given all the work by different shops that shows up in an older aircraft's logs over a few decades, it is doubtful that even your A&P knows everything that is in the aircraft.

[N33GG]

I have known a lot of great instructors ran out by the "dark side" of their passion. To help mitigate, I now require all my paying students to list me as named insured with a waiver of subrogation. Insurance companies don't like it, but will do it. It takes away their "hedge". Now it doesn't provide complete protection, but does help put one more arsenal of lawyers in the instructor's corner if the caca hits the prop. Just recently, I have had one insurance company not want to do this without charging the owner extra, so now the ball is in the owners corner if he wants instruction from my LLC or not.

The risk is real for what amounts to about $15-$20. actual hour of revenue when you get right down to it. No wonder we are a dying breed.

I am familiar with pretty much all of the insurance and legal protection angles and techniques. In my case, if all I had to worry about was covering the hull value of any Mooney, and that was the extent of my risk, I would still be instructing. The fact is, if there are injuries, even minor, or worse yet deaths, a couple of million liability may not do much for me, or my family. The odds are low that the worst would happen, but not zero.