'87 252/Encore panel upgrade plans

[IndyTim]

252BH is scheduled for TKS installation at Airnet in late January, and thought I'd take advantage of the downtime to do some avionics upgrades.  With this large of a spend, I've thought pretty hard about what I should do and where I want to end up next year.  I'm looking for comments/suggestions/feedback in the event I'm missing anything obvious.  And while it sounds a little ridiculous to say this, given the list of equipment below, I'm looking to spend no more than I must.  

 

I use the plane every week to fly 500-1000 nm to client sites all over the east and midwest. Being able to get through, over, or around as much weather as possible is important.  And ability to handle any type of airspace from rural Missouri to busy east coast is also key.  

 

I had my doubts about putting so much money into the plane, thought about going to a TKS Bravo, or Ovation 2 or 3.  But when I think about the hassle of the transaction, etc...   So here is the plan:

 

1. Add FIKI TKS

2. Replace the KMA-24 with remote audio panel GMA 35. 

3. Add Garmin GTN 750 over top of the GNS 430.  I thought hard about the 650 instead of the 750, but decided to go with the 750 for the WX, traffic, and chart displays.  

4. Slide the GNS 430 down in place of the KX165 as 2nd GPS/NAV/COM. It's non-WAAS so I don't get crossfill with the 750. I dunno about that, but I consider it a non-necessity for now (unlike everything else on the list!).  I'm really hoping both the 750 and 430 will fit in that space, over top of the KAP150.  

5. Replace the KT-76A with a GTX 330ES - the 252 likes the flight levels so I'll need the squitter, and I don't want the remote -33ES in case the 750 takes the day off.  With this in place, I'll be 100% ADS-B compliant.

6. Add a GTS 800 with traffic display on the 750. Maybe I'll add a GDL88 later, but until more folks are transmitting ADS-B out, the 330ES with GTS800 should provide a more complete traffic picture -- correct?

7. Add a GDL69a for Wx display on the 750.  I'm replacing my yoke-mount Aera 796 as my weather solution and looking forward to XM radio in the plane (ok, the "a" is an indulgence)

8. Upgrade the JPI 700 to JPI 830 since I can barely see the 700.  I wanted %HP and the constant display rather than a scan, and by the time I added all the necessary probes to a 730 I was in 830 territory price-wise.  Be nice to get alerts on all the engine parameters including oil, also.

 

I'm planning to add a G500 with a GAD43e interface to the KAP150, but it's already a big chunk of change so I'll let that wait.  Airnet is going to prewire for it though, while everything is apart.

 

Here are the doubts:

 

a. Am I nuts, spending this much money on a 27 year-old aircraft?

b. Am I losing any vital functionality or serious convenience by not WAASing the 430?

c. Will the 330ES and GTS800 get me the best traffic picture I can get for the money, today?  Am I giving up anything right now by not installing the GDL88?

d. While it's down, anything else I should attend to?   

e. Boy the G500 would sure be nice...  (TIM: don't go there)

 

 

 

[Marauder]

Just as nuts as me doing this to a soon to be 39 year old plane:

Bottom line is you and I will never get our money back out... So make peace with that. If you are certain at the end of the day your cost versus benefit meets your mission, you won't be second guessing yourself anymore.

The bigger question is whether in today's market it makes sense to buy up. There are some nice Acclaims out there that would be in striking distance after you complete all of your upgrades.

[Marauder]

a. Am I nuts, spending this much money on a 27 year-old aircraft?

- already answered. Yes, just like me and the rest of the idiots who have done this.

b. Am I losing any vital functionality or serious convenience by not WAASing the 430?

- personally if I owned a 430 non WAAS unit, I would trade it in. You can get $4k to $5k selling to an avionics shop that will upgrade it and resell it for $7k. Take the money and either toss in the 650 or pay down the 750 cost and keep the 165. There is a reason why many planes only have 1 GPS.

c. Will the 330ES and GTS800 get me the best traffic picture I can get for the money, today? Am I giving up anything right now by not installing the GDL88?

- Yes. And when you are ready to look at the 88, there may be better options available.

d. While it's down, anything else I should attend to?

- If you want to upgrade the engine monitor, I would look at the EI primary replacement. You may be able to remove several of your older engine gauges and free up panel space. When I get back from Christms shopping, I will look up the model number if you haven't found it yet. It was just released this past summer and is really priced right for a direct factory replacement strategy. It is in the 830 price range. I would sell the 700 series and put in e more capable unit.

e. Boy the G500 would sure be nice... (TIM: don't go there)

- I looked really hard at the G500/600 series and at the end of the day, found the Aspen was a better value for what it offered. Can you tell us what the G500 with 43e was quoted for? It was a sobering number in the high twenties for me. I would fly with what you are installing for a bit and see if the plane continues to meet your expectations or you may want to move up.

[IndyTim]

Just as nuts as me doing this to a soon to be 49 year old plane:

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1386441575.889220.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1386441605.175826.jpg

Bottom line is you and I will never get our money back out... So make peace with that. If you are certain at the end of the day your cost versus benefit meets your mission, you won't be second guessing yourself anymore.

The bigger question is whether in today's market it makes sense to buy up. There are some nice Acclaims out there that would be in striking distance after you complete all of your upgr

Nice upgrades.  And nice to know that if I am nuts I'm in good company.

 

I've gone 'round and round on the whole trade-up thing, and it's a done deal at this point since I already ordered the new equipment.   Relatively speaking the difference between what I'm spending and the trade-up is small.  But in absolute terms, it's still a pretty big number...

[IndyTim]

 

 

Thanks for the tip on the EI.  I'll go look at that.

[Bob_Belville]

Probably not as nuts as what I've done to my 48 year old E. (And I don't have somewhere to go every week.)

 

I'll put a vote in for the GDL88. And XM music on a 696.

 

I don't know the EI equivalent, I went with the JPI EDM 930 which got rid of a lot of instruments strewn all over the panel. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Tim,

 

I think you'll be happy holding onto this plane as opposed to going to a Bravo or similar.  the fuel burn and engine overhaul costs for an airplane that doesn't go a whole lot faster will quickly exceed your initial investment in avionics.

 

Glad to see you getting a lot of use out of Two Bravo Hotel.  Follow you on FlightAware a lot.

[Aron Peterson]

It seems to me that you are making the right choice. Safety first. What's it costing to do the fiki on the 252.

[Piloto]

Tim 

 

Since you are making 1000nm trips I would seriously consider adding long range tanks. A westerly head wind can considerably reduce your fuel range forcing you to stop for refueling and delaying your trip or worse running out of fuel. None of the new avionics add on will change the mission profile like the long range tanks.

 

José

[RocketAviator]

252BH is scheduled for TKS installation at Airnet in late January, and thought I'd take advantage of the downtime to do some avionics upgrades.  With this large of a spend, I've thought pretty hard about what I should do and where I want to end up next year.  I'm looking for comments/suggestions/feedback in the event I'm missing anything obvious.  And while it sounds a little ridiculous to say this, given the list of equipment below, I'm looking to spend no more than I must.  

 

I use the plane every week to fly 500-1000 nm to client sites all over the east and midwest. Being able to get through, over, or around as much weather as possible is important.  And ability to handle any type of airspace from rural Missouri to busy east coast is also key.  

 

I had my doubts about putting so much money into the plane, thought about going to a TKS Bravo, or Ovation 2 or 3.  But when I think about the hassle of the transaction, etc...   So here is the plan:

 

1. Add FIKI TKS

2. Replace the KMA-24 with remote audio panel GMA 35. 

3. Add Garmin GTN 750 over top of the GNS 430.  I thought hard about the 650 instead of the 750, but decided to go with the 750 for the WX, traffic, and chart displays.  

4. Slide the GNS 430 down in place of the KX165 as 2nd GPS/NAV/COM. It's non-WAAS so I don't get crossfill with the 750. I dunno about that, but I consider it a non-necessity for now (unlike everything else on the list!).  I'm really hoping both the 750 and 430 will fit in that space, over top of the KAP150.  

5. Replace the KT-76A with a GTX 330ES - the 252 likes the flight levels so I'll need the squitter, and I don't want the remote -33ES in case the 750 takes the day off.  With this in place, I'll be 100% ADS-B compliant.

6. Add a GTS 800 with traffic display on the 750. Maybe I'll add a GDL88 later, but until more folks are transmitting ADS-B out, the 330ES with GTS800 should provide a more complete traffic picture -- correct?

7. Add a GDL69a for Wx display on the 750.  I'm replacing my yoke-mount Aera 796 as my weather solution and looking forward to XM radio in the plane (ok, the "a" is an indulgence)

8. Upgrade the JPI 700 to JPI 830 since I can barely see the 700.  I wanted %HP and the constant display rather than a scan, and by the time I added all the necessary probes to a 730 I was in 830 territory price-wise.  Be nice to get alerts on all the engine parameters including oil, also.

 

I'm planning to add a G500 with a GAD43e interface to the KAP150, but it's already a big chunk of change so I'll let that wait.  Airnet is going to prewire for it though, while everything is apart.

 

Here are the doubts:

 

a. Am I nuts, spending this much money on a 27 year-old aircraft?

b. Am I losing any vital functionality or serious convenience by not WAASing the 430?

c. Will the 330ES and GTS800 get me the best traffic picture I can get for the money, today?  Am I giving up anything right now by not installing the GDL88?

d. While it's down, anything else I should attend to?   

e. Boy the G500 would sure be nice...  (TIM: don't go there)

Well call me crazy Tim as earlier this year in April I took the plunge on my panel 82 Rocket panel.  At the last moment I changed out the 430 to the GTN 650 and I am glad I did.  If the 750 takes the day off.. the 650 has the ability to feed my G500 with SVT without a hitch. Plus I use the 650 for alternate views such as traffic and or alternate fix or position as I often fly in the soup.  I chose the GAD 43 and GDL 88 which enables me VIA the G500 to have Alt Preselect and VS Preselect.  I also have the IPad with Clarity SV for a non-craft powered backup and at that point I won’t care if the ADS-B Out is available.  

 

One point i might suggest you consider as I have had the JPI 700 & 800 and now have the Insight G4.... Wow what a great unit for the price and the limited space I had to work with.  Notice the discrepancy in the factory TIT & the G4!

 

Here is a panel shot and a couple other shots of my avionics during one of my flights this last week and as you can see the G4 gives color change notice for all point monitored when set point is about to be reached.  I was pushing this one fairly hard at 230KTS Ground speed @ 191 TAS @ FL17 @ 15.9 GPH LOP.

[donkaye]

252BH is scheduled for TKS installation at Airnet in late January, and thought I'd take advantage of the downtime to do some avionics upgrades.  With this large of a spend, I've thought pretty hard about what I should do and where I want to end up next year.  I'm looking for comments/suggestions/feedback in the event I'm missing anything obvious.  And while it sounds a little ridiculous to say this, given the list of equipment below, I'm looking to spend no more than I must.  

 

I use the plane every week to fly 500-1000 nm to client sites all over the east and midwest. Being able to get through, over, or around as much weather as possible is important.  And ability to handle any type of airspace from rural Missouri to busy east coast is also key.  

 

I had my doubts about putting so much money into the plane, thought about going to a TKS Bravo, or Ovation 2 or 3.  But when I think about the hassle of the transaction, etc...   So here is the plan:

 

1. Add FIKI TKS

2. Replace the KMA-24 with remote audio panel GMA 35. 

3. Add Garmin GTN 750 over top of the GNS 430.  I thought hard about the 650 instead of the 750, but decided to go with the 750 for the WX, traffic, and chart displays.  

4. Slide the GNS 430 down in place of the KX165 as 2nd GPS/NAV/COM. It's non-WAAS so I don't get crossfill with the 750. I dunno about that, but I consider it a non-necessity for now (unlike everything else on the list!).  I'm really hoping both the 750 and 430 will fit in that space, over top of the KAP150.  

5. Replace the KT-76A with a GTX 330ES - the 252 likes the flight levels so I'll need the squitter, and I don't want the remote -33ES in case the 750 takes the day off.  With this in place, I'll be 100% ADS-B compliant.

6. Add a GTS 800 with traffic display on the 750. Maybe I'll add a GDL88 later, but until more folks are transmitting ADS-B out, the 330ES with GTS800 should provide a more complete traffic picture -- correct?

7. Add a GDL69a for Wx display on the 750.  I'm replacing my yoke-mount Aera 796 as my weather solution and looking forward to XM radio in the plane (ok, the "a" is an indulgence)

8. Upgrade the JPI 700 to JPI 830 since I can barely see the 700.  I wanted %HP and the constant display rather than a scan, and by the time I added all the necessary probes to a 730 I was in 830 territory price-wise.  Be nice to get alerts on all the engine parameters including oil, also.

 

I'm planning to add a G500 with a GAD43e interface to the KAP150, but it's already a big chunk of change so I'll let that wait.  Airnet is going to prewire for it though, while everything is apart.

 

Here are the doubts:

 

a. Am I nuts, spending this much money on a 27 year-old aircraft?

b. Am I losing any vital functionality or serious convenience by not WAASing the 430?

c. Will the 330ES and GTS800 get me the best traffic picture I can get for the money, today?  Am I giving up anything right now by not installing the GDL88?

d. While it's down, anything else I should attend to?   

e. Boy the G500 would sure be nice...  (TIM: don't go there)

I have spent the past 8 months reviewing products, deciding upon, choosing an avionics shop and authorizing the project for my avionics upgrade after my EFIS 40 failed, so I think I know the current market pretty well.  While the deed is done for you regarding upgrading the airplane, I would have recommended that you buy a Bravo, since they are being given away in this market, and after my type of avionics type upgrade you would have had an airplane almost as fast as an Acclaim that would have cost 2.5 times as much, and possibly not had WAAS.

 

Since that is water under the bridge at this point, here is my take on your situation.  Although you are concerned about the cost of the project, if funds are available, you are much better off doing the whole project all at once from an overall cost savings point of view.  This is what I did to my Bravo:  G500 with SVT, GAD43e, GTN 750, GTN 650, GMA 35, GTX 330ES, GTS 800 (get the Diversity unit), GDL 88 (non diversity, since I got the diversity GTS 800), GDL 69A, WX 500, ESI 2000, MVP-50.  I kept my KN 63 DME, KFC 150 and Shadin Miniflo-L.

 

Reasons:  I wanted the remote audio panel because of the ease of use and functionality vs the GMA 350.  If the 750 fails, it fails to Com 2 automatically.  Sell the 430 (you can get a pretty good price for it now) and put in the GTN 650 for your number 2 radio.   The sales price of the 430 plus the KX 155 will go a long way towards paying for the 650.  When you get the G500, if the 750 fails, the 650 would take its place for continued operation of the G500 which depends on WAAS GPS for operation.  The GTX 330 ES will only allow you to be an ADS-B "Participant" when combined with the GTN 750.  You still need a receiver to display it.  The Certified solution to that is the GDL 88 or non certified solution is the GDL 39.  Get the GDL 88 for the total solution.  The GTS 800 feeds the GDL 88, correlates the data and sends it to be displayed on the 750/650.  This would give you Garmin's TargetTrend display, which would not be available with only the GTS 800.  I chose the MVP-50 over the JPI because it has soooo much more functionality.  The penalty is that the display of the 930 is much better and the 930 gives "fuel to destination" instead of only "fuel to waypoint".  All engine instruments are replaced with either.  I chose the GTX 330 ES instead of the remote GTX 33 because I like the additional functions displayed on the non remote unit.  Both the 750 and 650 can control the 330ES.

 

Finally, my 796 is staying on the yoke in spite of all the above.  Since I got rid of my number 2 nav head, in an emergency where the G500 went black, the 796 would get me down with the assistance of the backup ESI 2000 and 750/650 .  Also with the GDL 39 (I'm keeping one in the front pocket and wiring it to power) ADS-B traffic and weather becomes available on both it and an ipad through bluetooth.

 

If you have any questions regarding the above, ask away.

 

Don Kaye, MCFI

[Z W]

Tim,

 

I think we met once, at the Bolivar, MO airport.  I'm glad to see you made a happy home for Parker's 252.

 

Your panel upgrade plans are sound.  You are going to have one of the nicest Mooneys out there, at a bargain price.  You didn't ask for this advice, but I'm throwing it out there anyways.

 

Your post suggests you plan to load this single-engine Mooney up with FIKI TKS, the best panel money can buy, and then fly it in as much weather as possible to meet your busy schedule.  Please be careful.  Having FIKI on a single does not necessarily mean you should launch into low IFR, thunderstorms, or icing.

 

I speak out of recent experience with an airframe very similar to yours.  It all makes sense and you will be very confident until you're over low IFR, and/or in icing conditions, and the gauges start reading funny (low/high oil pressure, oil temp, manifold pressure fluctuating, high/low vac, high/low amps, high/low CHT, high/low TIT).  Hopefully you don't have your family on board when a gauge on your only engine starts reading wrong.  Hopefully it's day time, and not night.  Hopefully you're not alone and have another IFR pilot in the right seat.  No matter what, you'll probably read these "be careful" posts from the internet with a new perspective.  I know I do, now.

 

Your Mooney, no matter how much you spend on it, is not an all weather machine.  Thunderstorms, ice, and low IFR should be avoided.  Fly safe, and congrats on a great purchase.

[IndyTim]

It seems to me that you are making the right choice. Safety first. What's it costing to do the fiki on the 252.

FIKI TKS is still $57k and change. At least it hasn't gone up again since the big jump a year or two ago. But still, wow.

[IndyTim]

Probably not as nuts as what I've done to my 48 year old E. (And I don't have somewhere to go every week.)

 

I'll put a vote in for the GDL88. And XM music on a 696.

 

I don't know the EI equivalent, I went with the JPI EDM 930 which got rid of a lot of instruments strewn all over the panel.

Nice panel, Bob. It really cleaned up well. how complete is your traffic picture with the gdl88? And do you have Diversity?

[Bob_Belville]

Nice panel, Bob. It really cleaned up well. how complete is your traffic picture with the gdl88? And do you have Diversity?

Tim, I suppose the GDL 88 Input/Output gives me traffic as good as you can get but I do not have anything to compare it to. And it auto adjusts ranges and allows prioritizing traffic. And NEXRAD weather is free. The version I have is the basic, non Diversity one. I don't know what difference that makes. (I ordered the GDL88 before it was shipping. I don't recall any conversation about options. We wired the plane for it and put it in a few months after I got the plane back from the panel makeover.)

[IndyTim]

Tim 

 

Since you are making 1000nm trips I would seriously consider adding long range tanks. A westerly head wind can considerably reduce your fuel range forcing you to stop for refueling and delaying your trip or worse running out of fuel. None of the new avionics add on will change the mission profile like the long range tanks.

 

José

Yes I agree the Monroy extende tanks would be good. With my current roster of trips I'm good for now. But this is high on the wish list.

[jlunseth]

The only comment I have is that if you find you have to prioritize, I would put the GDL69a higher on the list, probably #2 after the TKS.  I have the GDL69a with weather displaying on an MX20.  After the basic nav equipment, it is the most valuable thing I have in the cockpit when it comes to 3 or 4 hour cross country flights.  The weather at the destination is never what was forecast, and you will invariably have some kind of front to deal with along the way.  You can get weather on portable equipment now, but not as good in my opinion as the panel displays.

 

Check and see what you are going to do to your useful load though, I'll bet with TKS and all the rest you are going to lose somewhere in the vicinity of a hundred pounds.  While modern electronics are supposed to be lighter, somehow with installation it never quite turns out that way.

[Bob_Belville]

 

 

Check and see what you are going to do to your useful load though, I'll bet with TKS and all the rest you are going to lose somewhere in the vicinity of a hundred pounds.  While modern electronics are supposed to be lighter, somehow with installation it never quite turns out that way.

My panel upgrade reduced empty weight 15 pounds. My W&B has 18 lines of items removed @ 40#, 6 added @ 25#. Heaviest items removed: KNS80 6.0, KR87 6.7, Narch HSI 4.6. Heaviest added: GTN 750 9.8, EDM 930 5.8, Aspen 4.8.  

[Oscar Avalle]

Look we are all nuts and what we do does not make economic sense at all. But having said that this is what I did to my 43 year old girl...  What I would do if I could? would be to add a second ASPEN and a JPI 930 to get rid of the RPM and MP gauges. I would also replace my 795 with a 796 with weather if I were to fly in the US.

 

 

[IndyTim]

Thanks Oscar.  I was looking for a shot of a 750 over a 430. 

 

I really like gray panels.

[fantom]

This is a disgustingly $$$ devilishly tempting thread

[IndyTim]

I've worked through most of the decisions but have one lingering doubt about leaving the 430 in place. Looking for advice/comments.

I did decide to do the G500 with GAD43e now. I think I'd immediatelly regret not getting that done as one complete project.

The plan is still to slide the 430 down in place of the KX165. I want to replace the KX so that's a given. But since the 430 is non-WAAS there is no crossfill with the 750. I'm still pondering how necessary that is: like so many other capabilities, you don't really know what you're missing until you've tried it.

Alternatives:

a) WAA$ the 430. Rather not - I'd do a 650 before I'd do that. But this does provide some crossfill, and I'd have a backup GPS that will allow me to shoot LPV approaches if the 750 goes south.

Sell the 430, and replace the KX165 with a GNC255. This mimics my current setup with a good GPS/Nav/Com over a 2nd Nav/Comm. It frees up panel space compared to 750/650 or 750/430. Has some limited crossfill - mainly the frequencies. But this feels like going backwards compared to just leaving the 430 in place with no significant change in the economics one way or the other. I don't gain any additional approach versatility, actually lose RNAV in the "750 is down" scenario. But then again, with backup instruments, a GS indicator off the 255, and manual navigation from the Foreflight or 796 charts, I still have an IFR-capable setup that's pretty good in the unlikely event I lose both 750 and G500. Just no RNAV/GPS, which could be big deal at smaller airports with no ILS or LOC.

c) the obvious but as usual the most expensive choice is to just do a 650 but, hey, have to draw the line somewhere. And I'm not sure it's a necessity. Unlike everything else. ;-) I have GPS on the 750, the G500, Foreflight and maybe on the 796 if I hang on to it.

What are the scenarios where I'd be thinking, geez I should have done the 650?

[Marauder]

Do the 650, you are already headed for the poor house. Why should Bob, Bennett, Oscar, me a few others be there all by ourselves?

[Oscar Avalle]

Do the 650, you are already headed for the poor house. Why should Bob, Bennett, Oscar, me a few others be there all by ourselves?

Hey Maurader, please join us...It is great fun!  just don't tell my wife why we are there...

 

BTW on the crossfill, the 430 talks to the 750, but only if BOTH databases are up to date. That means that you have to pay US$ 1000 to Jepp to keep both current. I must say that I really don't know if this is SO IMPORTANT to spend US$ 500 additionally.... I feel that it is not.

 

Any opinions.

[IndyTim]

Well, I've sorted through several topics over the weekend with help from everyone here.  Thanks to all. 

- GDL88 vs GTS800 vs both

- 430 vs 430w vs 255 vs 650

- JPI 830 vs EI MVP vs G4

 

On to the next topic, which is: when I install the G500, I'll have a choice of two AIs to retain: the King or the Castleberry AI with inclinometer.  I'm tempted to go all electric and get the backup battery for the Castleberry (if available).  

 

I haven't found any evidence on this forum of anyone actually removing the vacuum system in one of our planes - other than the AI and DG is there anything else that requires it?