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Well equipped Encore wanted

nickmatic

By nickmatic
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nickmatic Enthusiast

nickmatic

Posted
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First aircraft purchase. I've done a ton of research and have set my mind on getting an Encore.

 

There are 2 on Controller and I can't find any others on aso, trade-a-plane, or barnstormers.

 

Anyone know of others out there or have any tips on where to look?

 

This one looks perfect, waiting for a call back from the broker:

 

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-ENCORE/1998-MOONEY-M20K-ENCORE/1253099.htm

 

Any thoughts on how to price this one out? I've looked into moving the registration from Canada to US and it will likely be on the easy side of things since the aircraft came from the US originally (some sneaky work with Google turned this up).

 

Many thanks in advance. Can't wait to be a Mooney owner!

 

Nicholas

KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

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Welcome to Mooneyspace!

 

Start here:

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/9868-the-worlds-best-equipped-encore/

 

 

Valuing that one is difficult... safe to say it has been improved way beyond what the market value is, but it appears to be a very nice plane.  The possibly low useful load would be my biggest concern, but if you never want to travel with 4 people in it that isn't a show-stopper.  Compared to a mid- to late-2000's Ovation or Acclaim it will be a steal.  To get an idea of how to price it, I'd average the asking price of a few different Encores (if you can find any) then estimate the cost of upgrades to match that one, but only count 50% of the upgrade cost towards the hull value.  

 

Not sure if Jimmy G's Mooney evaluation tool covers Encores but I think it does... if you're a MAPA member just find the latest J/K evaluation article and go from there.  I'd put more stock in it than VREF or similar.

Good luck!

nickmatic Enthusiast

nickmatic

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Scott, great find, thanks! I didn't think to search other forums but that is the plane indeed.

 

Great advice. Alas, I can't find any Encores out there with prices listed. I'll look for Jimmy G's tool, that's new to me.

 

Can't seem to get into the MAPA web site right now. I know I had read some good stuff there during my research.

 

Useful load may be a non-starter. Not sure why it's so low (according to the original owner). That's half my reason for looking for an Encore.

KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

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MAPA is having web host troubles right now... their servers are infected or something so I believe the site is down right now, hopefully not for long.

 

A member here (Parker W) just sold his 252 that he converted to an Encore configuration and it has a useful load > 1000 lbs.  It didn't have TKS and wasn't as loaded, but whatever the reason look at that loaded Encore carefully if you need to carry a lot!

Joe Zuffoletto Mentor

Joe Zuffoletto

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Take my recollection of the useful load with a grain of salt as my memory probably failed me. Of course, it's something you would explore in a prebuy anyway.

 

I always flew this plane alone or with my 110lb wife, and we never carried more than 50lb in two carry-on bags, so I did my w&b calculations once in the year 2000 and that was it!

  • Like 1
rainman Experienced

rainman

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Nicholas, all I will say is take your time and find a plane that has what you want. The cost of doing upgrades is money you won't see again. This plane seems to have been really upgraded so not much more to do. Let us know what the price point is on this plane. The panel and the TKS alone cost over $100K to upgrade, but you shouldn't pay for all of that, it's on the prior owners. Having spent $80K on upgrades to my plane, the broker told me it added only $20K in value....so maybe add $30K to a base mid time version, and subtract for the time past 900 hours?

  • Like 2
Cris Experienced

Cris

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Have you considered a Mooney Rocket which has a higher useful load and perhaps is less costly?

nickmatic Enthusiast

nickmatic

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I admit I didn't give it too much thought. My impression was that the fuel burn would be much higher even when run at the same airspeeds. Is that a bad assumption? I really like the unmodified 252 and Encore because of the relatively efficient fuel burn, meaning I'll hesitate less to jump in and fly.

nickmatic Enthusiast

nickmatic

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José- I had seen 308MA on Controller. Looks like a great plane but I'm hoping to find something with glass. If that proves impossible, it's definitely an option. Do you know the asking price and useful load? That could make the deal for me as well...

Piloto Grand Master

Piloto

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José- I had seen 308MA on Controller. Looks like a great plane but I'm hoping to find something with glass. If that proves impossible, it's definitely an option. Do you know the asking price and useful load? That could make the deal for me as well...

 

Check with Premier at http://www.flypas.com/

nickmatic Enthusiast

nickmatic

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My Encore has a useful load of 1026. I would think Joe's former plane is about the same. Mine is fully loaded, TKS, extended tanks, etc. I was suprised to see the A36 has a smaller useful load. http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/September/1/Classically-modern.aspx?CMP=ADV:2

The conversions I've seen seem to have a higher useful load. Coincidence? Not much data to go on. I heard back from the broker that he thinks the U/L is around 940lbs. Seems low... I wonder what the real story is.

 

That Bonanza looks nice though.... :)

nickmatic Enthusiast

nickmatic

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There were only about 20 Encores built, right?  So it is unlikely you'll see more than one or two for sale at once, I'd guesstimate.

Yeah unfortunately for me. 

 

So I've got someone who's seen the plane before who is gonna give me his opinion on the value, but anyone else want to offer their opinion?

 

 

Here's the way I see it: Yes, the panel and equipment are top notch but I feel like the base value is around $175k from what I've seen, plus maybe $25k for the mods (after depreciation). Later year plane (1998) but the engine is getting up there (1268 hours). Wild hand waving here, so feel free to put me in my place if I'm way off base. There's an Encore conversion on the market for $175k with the TKS FIKI and a all the same bells and whistles except the G500.
 
Another point of comparison is that I can get a similarly equipped Bravo for $225,000 or an Ovation2 GX for $249,500!
 
Neither have FIKI like the Canadian Encore, but the Ovation2 has G1000 (!) and the Bravo has G500, extended tanks, a 0 time factory reman engine, but not as nice radio/GPS stack. I feel these two planes have more value. Again, total hand waving... I may be missing something.
 
I'd love to hear others' thoughts!
Z W Proficient

Z W

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I don't value the latest glass avionics for very much. Your iPad can do more. Even if you're not convinced it can, the next generation of tablets will. The G1000 in the Ovation 2 probably is not WAAS-capable. The radio/GPS stack in the Bravo, after you are done tuning frequencies, just connects your voice to ATC when you press the button on the yoke. Same function as a 30-year-old radio.

The days of 50k glass panels are numbered. I wouldn't want to be one of the last guys to buy one. You can build a way cooler home theatre for the money.

I would tell you to pick the engine and airframe you want. Encore is turbocharged and serves a different mission than the Ovation. The Bravo is also turbocharged. Do you want a turbo? Do you need one? Do you need efficiency or speed?

The Encore is a mid-body length, and is the absolute king of efficiency. The Ovation and Bravo give more legroom for rear seat passengers, and more baggage area. They may go a little faster, but will burn 3-5 more GPH. Which do you want?

Once you've picked your engine and airframe, you're just going to be watching your autopilot follow a magenta line across the country. Do you care if it's on a G1000 or a 430W?

Just some items to think about.

nickmatic Enthusiast

nickmatic

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I don't value the latest glass avionics for very much. Your iPad can do more. Even if you're not convinced it can, the next generation of tablets will. The G1000 in the Ovation 2 probably is not WAAS-capable. The radio/GPS stack in the Bravo, after you are done tuning frequencies, just connects your voice to ATC when you press the button on the yoke. Same function as a 30-year-old radio.

The days of 50k glass panels are numbered. I wouldn't want to be one of the last guys to buy one. You can build a way cooler home theatre for the money.

I would tell you to pick the engine and airframe you want. Encore is turbocharged and serves a different mission than the Ovation. The Bravo is also turbocharged. Do you want a turbo? Do you need one? Do you need efficiency or speed?

The Encore is a mid-body length, and is the absolute king of efficiency. The Ovation and Bravo give more legroom for rear seat passengers, and more baggage area. They may go a little faster, but will burn 3-5 more GPH. Which do you want?

Once you've picked your engine and airframe, you're just going to be watching your autopilot follow a magenta line across the country. Do you care if it's on a G1000 or a 430W?

Just some items to think about.

 

Ah, the voice of reason. Thanks. I've thought very carefully about my "mission" (summary: turbo and efficient fuel burn) and that's why I've chosen the M20K, and of course the Encore is the top of that line. (By the way, I brought up that Bravo and Ovation only to get a sense of value. I'm not interested in either.) But this being the only Encore out there with TKS, I got excited by all the glass. It is pretty flashy. But glass really isn't on my must-have list and never was.

 

That said, if the seller will sell it for a reasonable price, I'd pay what it's worth to have the extra flash. It's a great plane and pretty pristine. If not, I'll likely go for an Encore conversion with steam gauges and get the same performance, mission, and enjoyment without the flash. For example:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-252TSE/1986-MOONEY-M20K-252TSE/1274203.htm

 

That one is probably my number 2 choice at this point. It has everything.

carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

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Speak openly with the seller.... (you may have done this already...)

He probably has a number he will take. If that matches what you will give, the sale will follow.

When you expose your position in a public place your negotiation may be slightly compromised.

(1) you want a K

(2) he has a nice K

(3) there are only a few Ks on the market

Fortunately, honesty is often the best policy for ordinary negotiators...

Sale pending on PPI is critical. Agree on price and what is included such as all air worthiness issues.

My experience comes more from buying and selling capital process equipment than airplanes. But the outcomes are similar.

Best regards,

-a-

nickmatic Enthusiast

nickmatic

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Speak openly with the seller.... (you may have done this already...)

He probably has a number he will take. If that matches what you will give, the sale will follow.

When you expose your position in a public place your negotiation may be slightly compromised.

(1) you want a K

(2) he has a nice K

(3) there are only a few Ks on the market

Fortunately, honesty is often the best policy for ordinary negotiators...

Sale pending on PPI is critical. Agree on price and what is included such as all air worthiness issues.

My experience comes more from buying and selling capital process equipment than airplanes. But the outcomes are similar.

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks. Yeah I hope this isn't hurting me having this stuff out here, but really I think I need to learn more than I need to get the most amazing deal. The seller wants way more than what the plane is worth, so I'm just trying to get a handle on what it really is worth so I can have that conversation with them.

 

In the end, I'll be happy with any decently equipped 252, and there are several out there.

  • Like 1
KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

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It is important not to fall in love with any particular plane until after the deal is done!  Sounds like you know that, though.  In this market it is very easy to over-upgrade any plane and get upside down in it.  Some don't realize it until they try to sell and are just shocked, but the market is what it is.  There are several planes out there that have been for sale for a very, very long time for this reason.

 

There were very few true Encores made, so finding one for sale at any given time is a crap-shoot, much less one that has everything you want.  At the end of the day, though, the sale price should reflect the market value, perhaps with a little premium, but you need to be happy with what you pay, not what the seller wants.

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