Another touch and go incident

[N601RX]

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2013/08/helena-regional-airport-khln-montana.html

[Marauder]

And for the instructor to admit fault as well...

[triple8s]

There was an incident at our home field today also. Was a student pilot and my instructor and I were talking, there was a crowd gathered around there poor little C172 which had just had the nose gear drove up into the cowling. People were blaming the young girl who was terribly shaken up. My instructor said "The student was NOT at fault, the instructor is to blame, the instructor is the one who failed." At least in this case the instructor had the gnads to accept responsibility in the case of the mooney over run.

[DAVIDWH]

Hmmn:

 

Sort of reminds me of my check ride with idiot FAA examiner that requested a single engine go around. Possible only with full power on good engine, steep descent and a perfectly timed bounce upward from the asphalt  then maneuvering around several trees at end of runway.

 

Today such a maneuver is strictly forbidden after the FAA begin to lose examiners as well as future twin engine pilots.

 

My POH for the Ovation states that go arounds should not be attempted in high performance aircraft, too much to reconfigure for a low time pilot. 

 

At first reading, my thoughts were this cannot be correct. However "Upon further review" ie. above incident that could have been a dual fatality, I now reconsider.

[jabodine]

I know Harold very well. He helped me finish my instrument rating. I have flown my instrument proficiency with him. I flew procedures "under the hood" with him today for currency. He is a first rate CFII and a very honorable human being.

Best regards,

Jonathan Bodine

[Hank]

My minimum runway length for TNG is 5000', and my home field is3000' long. Any idea of DA in Helena?

[WardHolbrook]

I've been a CFI for 35 years and it's getting harder and harder for me to see the value in TnG's especially in something like a Mooney. As this incident clearly shows, the downside will easily erase any potential benefits.  

[PMcClure]

It not clear to me that it was a touch and go. Could be a long landing instead.

[WardHolbrook]

My POH for the Ovation states that go arounds should not be attempted in high performance aircraft, too much to reconfigure for a low time pilot. 

 

I must be missing something. No go-arounds in a Mooney Ovation? A go around is a basic maneuver that must be mastered by all pilots regardless of what they are flying. Of course there are times when a go-around is not recommended - single engine go-arounds in light twins are a very bad idea and even though the 3-engine Falcon 900 that I fly for a living actually does quite well on one engine, there is a restriction in the AFM about going around if you're doing a 1 engine approach. There's no going around if you're less than 1000 agl. Aside from those two scenarios, go-arounds are something that every pilot needs to practice and be proficient at. You just never know when you'll need to do one.  

[201er]

To be doing touch and go's in a Mooney on a shorter than 3000ft runway is completely nuts to me. Not that I believe in touch and gos in a Mooney on any length runway but something that short and you're asking for trouble. However, I nonetheless commend the instructor's decision to abort the takeoff because other than a bent Mooney/Ego, nothing has been damaged (whereas if they continued, who knows?) and for taking responsibility. Overall, a positive outcome and a positive lesson. I prefer we learn from things like this than from fatal lessons.

[Jamie]

I like doing touch and goes. If you have plenty of runway, I don't see the problem. If I had to make full stops and taxi back each time, I'd be less proficient per hour of practice. How does that help?

[AndyFromCB]

I once did 3 go arounds at KAPA, all at about 3 feet AGL, due to winds and my inability to get my head out of my ass, so I'd say go arounds in long body mooney are fine. I tend to fly 2 months on hardcore and then not fly at all for 2 months due to local work. I assure you, I do a lot of go arounds when I first get back into the airplane and I've never had an issue. Touch and goes are just fine too. What's the difference? I have finally found the key: two kinds of pilots: one set that lets an airplane fly them and then the pilots who fly the airplane. I've slowly converted to the latter camp.

[jetdriven]

Someday, everyone will understand that touch-n-go landings in a complex airplane are not worth the risk. The difference is go-arounds are to prevent a worse outcome, touch-n-goes are for convenience, both are hazardous, but only one is required, the other is optional. This board contains several stories of pilots doing touch-n-goes which resulted in a totalled airplane or 40-50K in damage.

[Jamie]

Touch and goes may provide an opportunity to screw up, but I disagree they "aren't worth the risk". I land, I roll a bit, I push the throttle in, and I'm taking off. A 'J' will take off with full flaps if you forget to bring them up a notch.

 

What about this is unsafe? The landing? Normal landing. The taxi? I have to roll out anyway. The take off? The only thing that -could- be different is the flap setting and runway remaining.

 

I honestly want to know... please identify the risk. I don't see it.

[jetdriven]

The risk is accidentally retracting the gear during the transition and totalling your airplane 3 or 4 MS members in the past year have done this. 

[Jamie]

Ok, so I'll land without flaps (very doable) and then I won't have to fiddle with anything other than the throttle.

 

I'm not saying I won't ever screw it up, but I'm usually at my freshest when I go out to practice T&Ls. It's at the end of a trip when I have to pee and am tired after flying all day and just want to get down put the plane away and go home that it seems like I get weird instructions from ATC that cause me to interrupt my routine. I'm WAY more worried about distractions interfering with GUMPS causing a gear up landing than I am an hour of dedicated practice.

 

(And while I wouldn't hesitate to do T&Gs on 5000+ runways, I've got 10000+ where I'm based, so it's not like you have to get in a hurry preparing to take off again. Doing this on 3000+ runways IS probably not worth the risk.)

[jetdriven]

I make an exception for stop-n-goes on a 10K foot runway, but even then, it still results in a flaps up takeoff or a mistrimmed one. its risky.

[201er]

Ok, so I'll land without flaps (very doable) and then I won't have to fiddle with anything other than the throttle.

Then you're not practicing good landing technique.

 

Oh and what needs to change from the touch to the go?

 

-Flaps

-Trim

-Cowl flaps

-Prop in (check)

-Mixture in (check)

-Rudder (introduce left turning tendencies when applying power)

 

Yes, prop and mixture should have been in from landing approach. But if they weren't, on a stop-checklist-takeoff they'd be caught but on a touch and go, that can be catastrophic (on those engine stalled while trying to takeoff from touch and go type accidents I wonder if this played a role).

 

I don't really see any point of touch-n-goes for a licensed and/or experienced pilot. I don't think it's the best idea for student pilots but I realize that the idea is to get landings under their belt cheaply. But for an experienced pilot, who already knows WHAT to do, it's best to practice on getting one great landing rather than practicing mediocre ones over and over again. For the student, they want to do a lot of them (in a skyhawk granted) so they could learn to figure out WHAT to do. Once you know it, what's the value of quantity anymore?

 

If not lowering flaps or not trimming are shortcuts used to make touch-n-goes easier, then you're practicing doing touch and goes and not practicing making proper landings. What's the value at all?

[Hank]

I don't do T&G for landing practice, they're usually between practice approaches for IFR currency. If I'm high or wide, I'll miss, but it's also good to practice landing at other airports. Touch mains, hold off the nose, let it touch, use a finger to raise flaps while holding the throttle to idle, glance at the trim (often near Takeoff), adjust if needed, full throttle and right rudder as for any takeoff. Where's the risk of raising the gear instead of flaps?

Have some people come to grief? Sure they have. What phase of flight is so low-risk that it's accident free? Off the top of my head, I can think of Mooney accidents in Taxi, Takeoff, Cruise, Descent and Landing, and I'm sure only a few minutes will be required to find some in Initial Climb. I am aware of a local Initial Climb accident in a Columbia that killed the pilot and his collegiate son. So which phases of flight are so risky that you avoid them? How about infamous things like Crosswind Landings or the dreaded Base to Final Turn that claim so many aircraft? Do you recommend avoiding those, too?

I think T&G is a valuable maneuver, and if my home field was half again as long, I might do more of them. Unsafe in a complex aircraft? Don't tell the military, I grew up watching F-4s, A4s and A6s doing T&Gs by the hour, and now see C-130s flying large wide patterns for T&Gs.

[Jamie]

Oh and what needs to change from the touch to the go?

 

-Flaps

-Trim

-Cowl flaps

-Prop in (check)

-Mixture in (check)

-Rudder (introduce left turning tendencies when applying power)

Flaps don't have to be used, and if they are, they don't have to be retracted before climbing out again. I can, and have, taken off with full flaps.

Cowl flaps are always open while doing touch and goes. Why would you close them? I never go fast enough in the pattern to run with them closed.

Same with prop. It's always max while doing T&Gs. It's in anyway after a normal landing.

Same with mixture. I'm at 800ft field elevation. Actually, that's probably something I need to start doing... I haven't been leaning properly once on downwind. OTOH, I'm only on downwind for a minute or two, so...

Rudder? I don't check aileron or elevator either... "Rudder - as required".

 

I don't really see any point of touch-n-goes for a licensed and/or experienced pilot.

The military clearly disagrees with you. I often see T-38s and C130s doing touch and go's at HSV. I take my scanner and eat lunch at the hangar (which faces 36R). They're usually practicing approaches, but they don't stop and taxi back.

 

If not lowering flaps or not trimming are shortcuts used to make touch-n-goes easier, then you're practicing doing touch and goes and not practicing making proper landings. What's the value at all?

I use flaps. I'm saying that if that's all that it takes to eliminate a large risk while engaging in this particular activity, they're optional. And you can go around with landing trim. As far I can tell, very little if anything MUST change to transition from "I'm landing" to "I'm taking off".

It's been suggested that the major risk during touch and go's is pulling the gear up instead of the flaps. If that's true (and I can certaily see it in planes where the gear and flap switchs are right next to each other), then all I'm saying is there are things you can do to decrease the risk.

In a mooney, given how (not?) effective the flaps are, you could set "take off" flaps on base / final, and not touch ANYTHING (except throttle) again until cleaning up on the climb out. I wasn't worried about the risk before, but I think I'll try that next time out. If raising the gear instead of the flaps is the main problem, it can be eliminated entirely.

[Dale]

When working with my instructor (who instructs in Mooneys) in my m20k we did not do touch and goes even though we were on an 8000 foot runway, however we did practice go arounds, missed approaches, from a landing configuration on final approach quite a few times. In fact, I was coming into Craig airfield in Jacksonville in minimal VFR conditions and the bad weather closing in when the tower requested an immediate go around just as I crossed over the numbers on short final. Apparently, the tower had a small jet behind me on final for the same runway and they didn't want the jet to go around because if he had to go around it would have put him in the soup and the ILS was out at Craig, so he may not have been able to get back in, but for me I was able to do the go around and then get right back on final for the landing without getting into the bad weather. Consequently, the practice for the go around, missed approach, came in handy. I personally don't like doing tng's in the mooney and my instructor does not do them in a complex aircraft even though we do practice go arounds and missed approaches. If I were doing tng's in a mooney, I would definitely want a longer runway to cut down on the margin for error.

[201er]

Flaps don't have to be used, and if they are, they don't have to be retracted before climbing out again. I can, and have, taken off with full flaps.

Cowl flaps are always open while doing touch and goes. Why would you close them? I never go fast enough in the pattern to run with them closed.

Same with prop. It's always max while doing T&Gs. It's in anyway after a normal landing.

Same with mixture. I'm at 800ft field elevation. Actually, that's probably something I need to start doing... I haven't been leaning properly once on downwind. OTOH, I'm only on downwind for a minute or two, so...

Then what value do you get out of this? Practicing touch and goes for the sake of getting good at touch and goes. But this is not how you normally/properly fly a Mooney.

 

I rarely do pattern work in the Mooney (between flying enough to stay proficient and pitying the gear/engine) but if I do, I always takeoff with flaps and cowl flaps open. Retract gear. Retract flaps. Boost pump off. Throttle back. RPM back. Mixture back. Cowl flaps closed. Abeam numbers gear down. Trim. Flaps t/o. Trim. GUMPS check. Prop/mixture full forward on base. GUMPS check. Flaps full on final. Trim. Check gear down. Land. Get off the runway and start again.

 

Nothing against you. I just think that by taking all those short cuts in order to make a touch and go work entirely negates the value of practicing going around the pattern! When you own the plane and by gas/engine by tach time, the taxi back costs very little (as opposed to student in a hobbs meter wet rate). You just get to spend more time flying your plane and practice doing things the way you need to do them for real trip takeoffs and landings. I still don't see "the point" of doing touch and goes in a Mooney?

[Jamie]

What value do I get from touch and gos....

Good question.

For me, it's all about the flying part, not the procedure part. I like getting the pattern perfect, and making a nice stablized approach to land exactly where I wanted to. This doesn't happen as often as I'd like. But I'm close, and I'm getting better.

You keep saying T&Gs are not like "normal" landings, so they're worthless. I disagree. They're exactly like normal landings. I read your procedure above. The only places we differ are things we'd still do differently on a full stop. I do not close cowl flaps. I do not pull the RPMs back. I should be leaning, and will start practicing that (thanks ), but other than that, I don't see any difference. One modification I am going to try is setting "take off" flaps on final and then not touching anything until cleaning up after starting climb out.

Of course now you've jinxed it. I'll gear up the very next time I go out.

[aaronk25]

Someday, everyone will understand that touch-n-go landings in a complex airplane are not worth the risk. The difference is go-arounds are to prevent a worse outcome, touch-n-goes are for convenience, both are hazardous, but only one is required, the other is optional. This board contains several stories of pilots doing touch-n-goes which resulted in a totalled airplane or 40-50K in damage.

Ya try 60k in damage........but I have a really nice bird now! But even with that I wish I could turn back the clock and not have done it!

[201er]

You keep saying T&Gs are not like "normal" landings, so they're worthless. I disagree. They're exactly like normal landings. I read your procedure above. The only places we differ are things we'd still do differently on a full stop. I do not close cowl flaps. I do not pull the RPMs back. I should be leaning, and will start practicing that (thanks ), but other than that, I don't see any difference.

Do you realize that the amount of fuel you'd save by bringing back throttle, rpm, and mixture on downwind would probably more than cover the fuel used to taxi back??

 

You know the biggest reason I close cowl flaps when I level off on downwind? Not as much a practical consideration (although to an extent) but as practice for "real flying." It builds good habits of setting up for cruise, setting up for landing, setting up for takeoff, etc. It sets up SOP and muscle memory of what to do. So on the rare occasion I practice patterns, I'm practicing all phases of flight condensed into 2 minutes. And it's a workout because by the time you're set up for cruise you're already preparing for landing.

 

I may be wrong but to me it sounds like you're trying to fly Skyhawk Touch and Goes in a Mooney by avoiding as many of the "complex" bits as possible. I'm not experienced enough to be telling you what to do, but just from my own experience I have found that practicing the full takeoff, climb, cruise, approach, landing procedure in full stop landings with no shortcuts is both a challenge and practice for real landings and phases of flight.