Annual down time?

[hansel]

I dropped off my J off for its annual inspection in mid September. The shop found several standard minor squawks and a few significant ones (prop governor overhaul, mag overhaul, new brakes). I’ve been patient- the mag overhaul was off-site and took slightly more than a week- but were now pushing two months and I’ve been told to expect another week or two. I feel like I’m getting hosed and becoming frustrated about the process in general (e.g., it’s annoying that I’m paying two months of insurance on a plane that sits in the back of a hanger). I don't feel like I should need to be a dick in order get good service.

How long are your annuals normally taking?

Follow-up: Can anyone recommend a good, honest, non-MSC shop for Mooneys in NorCal (Sacramento area)?

Thanks in advance.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Don Maxwell did a 100 hr for me (almost same thing as an annual).  Started at 9am and was done by mid-afternoon.  I kept it in the shop for an extra couple days for an upgrade though.

Hopefully I'll drop my M20J on 2/28/2009 and have it back within 3 days.

He did a prebuy for me in a morning and half an afternoon on an M20K I didn't buy.  They had two guys on it at all times and ran up a squawk list coming up to $20,000.  I didn't buy the plane.

[jrjaks]

That seems way too long.  On my last annual, the engine had to go back to Lycoming, the prop gov. overhauled, and several other off-site things done, (because of premature cam wear and resultant oil contamination).  They did all that in between 2 and 3 months.  Most of my annuals take a week, (4 so far on my J, and 8 on the C I had before that).  I used to live in Oroville, and had the shop on ther field do a couple annuals there, but that was 18 years ago.  Why do you want to go with a non-MSC?

[hansel]

It’s not that I’m opposed to using an MSC-  both LASAR and Top Gun are within an hour flight from here- but you pay a premium for work that I think a good non-MSC mechanic should be able to handle. At the very least I’m not sure it’s worth always using an MSC. I’ve used LASAR on a couple of occasions in the last year for more Mooney-specific issues (e.g., nose-gear assembly; fuel tank leak) and haven’t been disappointed aside from the inflated price. Although, they did get the plane flying again in a reasonable amount of time, which it more than I can say now. Never thought down-time would be an issue for an annual.

Another Mooney-less weekend…

[Ned Gravel]

Please don't take my comments the wrong way, but I get the feeling that the money you spend on your airplane causes you some difficulty.

I am not going to try and tell you that you need to spend more money on your airplane, but in many service industries ( I work in laboratory accreditation) you have three conditions on the type of service work you can ask to have done:  test this, certify that, inspect this, repair that, etc. 

The service can be delivered to you fast, cheap, and done correctly.  You get to pick two out of three.

For my own sake, the sake of my passengers, and the sake of those on the ground who did not sign up for any possibility of an in-flight engine failure, my priorities are "done correctly" followed by whichever of the other two governs at the time.  An annual takes 36 hours, according to the book and I am OK with that.  

My '65 M20E is maintained by an MSC whose owner, like Don Maxwell, owns and flies his own Mooney.  In Clarence's case, it is a '66 M20E.  His knowledge (and admiration) of Mooney's he has saved my wallet and my bacon more than once. He is more expensive than the little shop on my field but he knows what he is doing, when it comes to my Mooney. The local shop dislikes them because they are "knuckle busters" and too tight to get at things. Out of the five Mooney's on my field, two of us go to the same MSC, 90 Mooney minutes away. 

See the attached photo. The shop that left my airplane out in the rain with the cheek cowls off only got one chance to do that.  Never again.  More expensive at my MSC 200 nm away, but never again.

It may be that not all MSC's are as diligent as I am painting Clarence's shop, but I do not know many others and I cannot say.  Some, like Don Maxwell's shop have envious reputations for "doing it right."  Once the decision is made by the pilot to spend the money on whatever work needs doing, these folks are more worried about doing it right than shaving money and saving time.  That is exactly how I want them to work.  No new expenses without my approval, but no hiding the necessity of anyting either.

I know that my annual, because my aircraft is a Mooney, costs at least twice what an annual for a Cessna 172 costs (at least those 172's done by the little shop on my field).  My decision to own and fly one of Al's designs included that consideration.  Sometimes I find it hard to balance all the costs of owning one, but when I decide Clarence is too expensive, I am going to sell my E model and buy something that flies lower and slower, and costs less to maintain.

 

 

[hansel]

It's not the money I that bothers me, it's the excessive time for a standard annual that was the focus of my original post. A 36-hour job (plus fixing squawks) shouldn't take 2 calendar months.

I only mention non-MSC because I'm aware of those closest to me (LASAR/Top Gun) and do use them, but I'm interested finding other relatively local shops that can provide good service. My approach (as with many on this forum) is to deal with squawks immediately and I don't think one always needs to take the journey to an MSC every time a minor squawk surfaces if the MSC is out of the way and unnecessarily more expensive. There are good shops (both MSC and non-MSC) that can provide service done correctly at a reasonable price and in a reasonable amount of time. I don't buy that we have to sacrifice one of these, but do agree that anyone looking for work done fast and cheap is also looking for trouble.

[Ned Gravel]

Eric:

My apologies if I mistook your meaning. I know it can be difficult to find a good shop.  I was luckier than most.  I wish you luck in your search.  Even if one might not consider that your bird deserves a good shop, you do.

 

[eaglebkh]

I've been through 2 annuals...  First was 7 weeks and the second was 3 weeks.

First annual:  would have been done in 1 week, but the last item to inspect was the engine mount, and sure enought it had a crack .  We ordered another mount (~1 week shipping) and then discovered it wasn't the correct mount (~2 weeks to return and receive correct one).  Then it was about 2 more weeks to remove and remount the engine.

Second annual:  Had to overhaul the prop.  Most of the 3 weeks was consumed by waiting on the prop to get sent off and returned from overhaul shop.

The only mechanic on my field is part-time and non-MSC.  He has a life-time of experience including Mooneys, and believes a non-squak annual on my plane should be done in less than a week, though I don't know of many who have experienced one of those...

[Flybeech21]

My Annual took one week.  Though, there is more to this story.  I have a friend and old co-worker who is a MSC mechanic and IA.  I did my first annual under his supervision.  But, we have a progressive maintenance schedule where we tackle individual systems throughout the year to overhaul/restore them.  I end up doing way more work during the year than I did or will do on the annual.

For instance, The airplane was not squak free at the completion of the last annual but was airworthy.  I do NOT cut corners on safety items period.  But, I didnt fix things like the PC control system that had been disconectied for three years.  I am now fixing the PC system 8 months after the annual.

hansel,  I worked at a repair station as a non-certified mechanic working towards my A&P (which I never got) and I can tell you that I would be furious if an annual took that long on my Mooney.  Hell, we turned a King Air that had been crashed in two months. I just dont get why it would take that long for the items that you have described.

I will say that if your shop is trying to save you money, it could take longer.  There are ways to get things done quicker that cost a little more.  You just need to let your shop know that you want it back quicker and are willing to pay a little more to get it back quicker.  Example:  Replacing parts and getting a core charge credit is way quickier than waiting for an overhaul from some thrid party who doesnt know you and could care less. 

Sorry you are without your bird.  That sucks..  And that is why I do my own maintenance with an IA's assitance so I can only blame myself for issues.

 

[mjc]

Quote: hansel

I dropped off my J off for its annual inspection in mid September. The shop found several standard minor squawks and a few significant ones (prop governor overhaul, mag overhaul, new brakes). I’ve been patient- the mag overhaul was off-site and took slightly more than a week- but were now pushing two months and I’ve been told to expect another week or two. I feel like I’m getting hosed and becoming frustrated about the process in general (e.g., it’s annoying that I’m paying two months of insurance on a plane that sits in the back of a hanger). I don't feel like I should need to be a dick in order get good service.

How long are your annuals normally taking?

Follow-up: Can anyone recommend a good, honest, non-MSC shop for Mooneys in NorCal (Sacramento area)?

Thanks in advance.

[hansel]

Thanks. We've had a lot of communication, been through the itemized list, even been down on creepers checking out every last detail. I've been given a lot of promises on timelines that keep getting pushed back. The prop gov overhaul should have been the rate limiting step, but that turn around was only about 1.5 wks. The work is solid, so I'm trying to be patient and not become frustrated, but when I checked in last week, i found out the mechanic went on vacation and didn't put anyone else on the plane in his absence. Anyways, apologies for the whining... i just find life difficult without a Mooney.

Michael- who do you usually use in your neck of the woods? I usually fly down to Palo Alto 2-3 times a week (before my annual, of course).

[mjc]

Quote: hansel

Michael- who do you usually use in your neck of the woods? I usually fly down to Palo Alto 2-3 times a week (before my annual, of course).

[Immelman]

In my opinion a 2-month annual is not acceptable. Either the shop/AI you are working with has put you at the bottom of the priority queue or a subcontractor (you sent out a few things for OH) is to blame. If its the latter I guess there isn't much you can do than to try to cancel the work in progress and take the business elsewhere or buy new parts as appropriate. If its the former... I would have a serious talk with the shop and possibly pull the plug on a future relationship.

I write this acknowledging that 'things happen' -- and the stories above about engine mounts and props are, I think, acceptable, but let's face it: 2 months is 1/6th of the year. In addition to costing you insurance its costing you... the next annual, capital cost of owning the airplane, and your own proficiency in not being able to fly, not to mention losing the ability to actaully go places or do business which is what most of us have an airplane for in the first place!!

Also, I would not get too hung up on the MSC/non-MSC thing IF you have a good A&P. I've been very blessed with my guy down here at WVI. He's very generous in his time (perhaps too much so), knows Mooneys inside and out, and is highly experienced. For things like Mooney specific parts or issues I, of course, love the fact that top gun and lasar are there and I am frequently depending on those outfits for parts. If I ever had a major repair I would strongly consider them, too... but there is not necessarily a whole lot magical about, for example, working on mooney gear as long as the mechanic has the right tools and knows how to use them.

[Dan]

I  often see an add for a mobile AP who travels around SF Bay/Sac and Nevada. I have no idea about how good he is or anything about his prices, only that I see his add and the original poster was asking for a non Mooney AP.

If anyone is interested, he advertises 60.00 annuals. Here is the link.

http://goldcountry.craigslist.org/for/1421165796.html

If anyone uses him, I would appreciate feedback for future reference.

Dan

[hansel]

I'm sure that's an hourly rate, which is still low, especially for California.

[hansel]

Quote: JimR

My BlackBerry wouldn't allow me to open the original Craigslist advertisement. I didn't think about it being an hourly rate. I was thinking more in terms of a Craigslist scam. Hopefully your instincts are right and mine are wrong. . Thanks!

[georgeb]

My 2 cents,

My first annual (over three years ago) went pretty much how your's is going right now. It actually went closer to three months and cost me a nut. I, however, had saved up my pennies and had several speed mods done at the same time as the first annual. While this did extend the amount of time it took to do the annual, what really affected my annual was the lack of maintenance from the previous owner (that was a pitch for a thorough pre-purchase by the way). I was a first time  buyer and new pilot and ..... you know the drill, but the gyst of it is that he found a crap load of stuff that was not only out of compliance, but showed neglect on the part of the previous owner. I've since become pretty anal about my maintenance and the tiniest of issues is immediately taken care of. This has led to my 2 subsequent annuals going smooth (less than a week for both) and relatively in-expensive (as far as annuals go). The fact that it's frequently flown and my AP gets a chance to not only look at but fly her often helps. This not only leads to quicker and cheaper annuals, but you spread the maintenance costs out throughout the entire year rather than being hit with everything at once. Anyway, what I really wanted to say was don't count out an AP simply because he's a traveling AP. You see, my AP is one of these. He does all of the work in my hangar and if the need arises (only once in three years and that was for painting) we'll ferry the plane to a borrowed facility that he arranges ahead of time. He's got more years experience than he cares to remember on everything from DC3's to Mooneys and not only reparing them, but he's also got thousands of hours as a pilot (military; commercial; and private). The only time my Mooney has been in a shop was when I first purchased her and I didn't know my AP. That one visit to a supposedly well equipped shop (at my home field BTW) left my plane not only with a magnetized frame, but with overspray from another plane they were touching up at the same time my plane was in their shop. The magnetized frame (from what I've been told by several including my AP) will come back and haunt me every few years. So to say that I won't take my Mooney to one of the shops that we have on the field is an understatement. The fact that they have a large facility doesn't mean they have the ability to properly repair my plane. There's more to it than just the afore mentioned incident, but you get my drift. I guess my point to all of this is don't count out a guy just because he doesn't have a shop. You may be passing up a gem of a mechanic.

George!

[N6843N]

As a long time A&P/IA I'm pretty sure you are the victim of a "wall job". Thats where once you get the aircraft apart and it can't leave you get pushed to the back of the shop in order to get fresh meat in the door. Sad deal but I have seen many owners who run there shop like this. There is no reason for your annual to take that long period.

[skyking]

My first annual on the Mooney took one week.

My second one involved engine, prop, spinner and Governor replacement and i still had my pane back in 3 weeks.

The longest annual i have ever experienced was one month and that was years ago.

 

russ

[231Pilot]

Longest annual I ever had was the first one on my M20C (6 weeks), second longest was on the same plane, annual number 4, when the right tank was resealed and still leaked, was drained, stripped and re-resealed.  Not a cheap annual in time or money.  Now I use a very good traveling A&P and he is thorough, reasonable (but not cheap) and efficient, last 3 annuals have been in my hangar and 4 to 8 days.  Over 2 months is way too long!