Starter Adapter now, new airplane is snakebit!

[Fix]

13 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The starter turns without the prop turning

How much does it slip?

Is it like Prop is not moving at all.
Prop starts to move and then a quick slip and then as normal again?

Random events, or when it starts happening it there?

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Fix said:

How much does it slip?

Is it like Prop is not moving at all.
Prop starts to move and then a quick slip and then as normal again?

Random events, or when it starts happening it there?

I think there’s different levels of slipping.  My prop wasn’t turning at all until the end of a start and then it just flinched.  Meanwhile, I could hear the starter turning.

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, Fix said:

How much does it slip?

Is it like Prop is not moving at all.
Prop starts to move and then a quick slip and then as normal again?

Random events, or when it starts happening it there?

First it slips, then eventually the prop is not moving at all - it gets worse over time. If you notice it starting to slip you may have a few starts left, but not many.

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

First it slips, then eventually the prop is not moving at all - it gets worse over time. If you notice it starting to slip you may have a few starts left, but not many.

 

I swear I only got one start between “slipping” and kaput, but admittedly, I had a lycoming before and wasn’t looking for it.

[atpdave]

I had my adapter overhauled earlier this year when it quit cranking the engine on battery power. Luckily a GPU was available, the engine started with the higher voltage, and away to the shop I went. I replaced the Iskra starter with an overhauled Energizer at the same time. Before it gave out, I had noticed the engine was becoming harder to start but didn't know why (I didn't notice that the engine had been cranking more slowly during start). The engine spins super fast now and it starts immediately, within one revolution. Hot starts are much easier too. This problem had been slowly getting worse over time, reminding me of the story about how to boil a frog.

[Will.iam]

I guess it varies from plane to plane. When mine first slipped the prop twitched and i heard the starter whine. Let go of the keys waited a few seconds and tried again and it turned the prop and it started. After the flight i went down a rabbit hole trying to find any data on why it happened how many more starts do i have before failure etc. i never got a straight answer to how long or how many starts i would get as it ranged between you might get one more start or immediate failure. My drive at the time was i just got the plane with a fresh annual and was not keen on downing the airplane loosing maybe a month or longer to get it fixed so i rolled the dice and continued using it for 9 more months to annual at which time i would get it fixed then and even then it took 6 weeks for them to fix the adapter. I figured if i got stuck at an out station i could use a gpu to start it and then expedite the overhaul then. The adapter only slipped one other time about 3 months away from annual. I was also keenly aware that everytime it slips the adapter is grinding more of the starter shaft than a normal start and didn’t want to windup with a shaft so warn that the smaller spring would not fit and turn this into a much more expensive repair. Had it slipped 4 times i was going to also schedule it early to fix fir this very reason. Unfortunately all the data collected at savvy did not help as they did not have a matrix on how much konger pilots flew on an adapter that had started to slip.  This is just my data point and logic i used and the outcome was better (lucky) in that i got to use the plane until annual. 

[Ragsf15e]

G&N took about 3 weeks total to gather all the parts, overhaul and send back.  Almost everything internal was replaced with new, so total was $4200.  Luckily most of the parts were available new with some research and digging, but one gear was advertised as 10 week lead time.  They looked at it and said it was serviceable, so reused it.  Obviously shaft and spring new as well as most of the other gears.  
Reinstalled this morning with my mechanic.  Took ~3 hours (alternator, intercooler, starter, etc).  About to crank it up and leak check, fingers crossed!

[Ragsf15e]

On 6/3/2025 at 12:35 PM, LANCECASPER said:

G & N did a great job on mine for a lot less than money than other companies wanted

 

So here’s my story with G&N… sent them my SA.  About 1 week later they called with a tear down report and said almost everything internal was trash.  Specifically, all the gears, shaft and spring.  I had read through the logs and found that this was at least the 3rd time it had been rebuilt so I wasn’t shocked.  They said rebuilding it would cost $5200 with a new shaft, spring and gears or they said they were looking into an oh/exchange for $2500 (but were still waiting on details).  They were somewhat surprised when I told them to go with all new parts (and $5200 vs oh/ex) because I wanted reliability and the ability to repair it in the future instead of the unknown of an exchange.  They said ok, 4 weeks.  I had already researched the shaft and knew Niagra had them in stock ($1100) and told G&N.  Fast forward 3.5 weeks, I get a call saying it’s done, but there’s one gear that they couldn’t get in time so they sold me a serviceable one they had and reduced the price to $4300.  It arrived and we installed it.  It works.  However, as I was putting away all the paperwork, I looked through their parts list and realized that a new shaft wasn’t on there and the spring is a .04 undersized which is actually smaller than i thought they could go but apparently not.  I called them and the person I had been dealing with the whole time was just as surprised as me, because he was the one that told me my shaft was not serviceable and had been ground down too many times. He went to talk to the service manager and called me back about 20 minutes later. Apparently, after I approved all the new parts, they said they couldn’t find a new shaft and then they looked at mine again and decided they could grind it down within limits, so they did. Unfortunately, they never told me any of this. If I knew I was going to get a shaft that was on its last legs, I probably would’ve gone with an overhaul exchange to save time and money. They offered to warranty the labor for one year, but I said I wanted longer than that. The customer service person said I would have to call the service manager as he was the one that could approve that. When I called him, he was just unprofessional and yelled at me for being unreasonable.  I feel like I should have approved the change in plans for the parts, and that might have changed my plan on what to approve new versus exchange. Am I being unreasonable with this?

and so apparently @kortopates was right, and I should have sent it to Western skyways. However, they never returned my phone calls, so there’s that. It’s tough to find a shop that does both good work and customer service unless you can participate in the actual work and keep an eye on it.

[kortopates]

Sorry to hear this. I would have been just as upset as well after not approving what you had agreed to on the phone with them. 

[Pinecone]

Did you pay by credit card?  You did not get what you ordered.

[Ragsf15e]

9 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Did you pay by credit card?  You did not get what you ordered.

Yes, and yes, I am pursuing a reduction in the price.  We’ll see how it goes.  To be fair, they didn’t charge me for a new shaft, they just didn’t do what i had approved, so that’s a little harder to put a $$ amount on.

[Pinecone]

So they reduced the price to $4300 due the used gear.  Did the drop it another $1100 or so for the used shaft versus new??

[kortopates]

I guess your only option is to return it and have them replace the shaft as agreed earlier, pay for the new shaft but have them cover all the labor to correct since that was what was agreed too - all at another potential 3 weeks of down time. 

I am not sure though it's going to reduce your cost in the future though which will be the same new shaft (and new spring) next time and it should last just as long till next needed servicing.

[Ragsf15e]

39 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I guess your only option is to return it and have them replace the shaft as agreed earlier, pay for the new shaft but have them cover all the labor to correct since that was what was agreed too - all at another potential 3 weeks of down time. 

I am not sure though it's going to reduce your cost in the future though which will be the same new shaft (and new spring) next time and it should last just as long till next needed servicing.

Agreed.  Also, I think I kept a pretty cool, reasonable persona throughout, but the way the service manager spoke to me, I would never have them work on anything for me again.  It was pretty bad.

[Ragsf15e]

57 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

So they reduced the price to $4300 due the used gear.  Did the drop it another $1100 or so for the used shaft versus new??

No. The customer service person thought it was the serviceable gear that reduced it to $4300.  Instead, i was still charged $850 for that gear (it was ~$1000 new), and they didn’t charge for the new shaft.    He was pretty surprised as well when I called and pointed out that the price reduction was from not getting a new shaft and not from the serviceable gear.  They didn’t charge me for anything I didn’t get, they just didn’t do what we agreed.

[Will.iam]

This is why i so wished the laws in the auto industry would be applied to the aviation industry in that any work to be performed must be in writing with a signature approval on that letter BEFORE work is preformed. None of this assuming what the customer will want and doing the work first then handing the customer the bill.