AV-30 vs. Garmin 275 vs. Garmin G5 vs. ______

[McMooney]

On 10/20/2024 at 12:01 PM, Vance Harral said:

Not trying to justify the shop's quote, but if you're installing a G5 HSI, the G5 unit and its 4 connections (pitot, static, CANBUS, RS-232 or GPS antenna) is only a fraction of the work.

If you want the HSI to actually show heading you have to mount and wire a magnetometer, and if you want it to show nav information, you have to interface it to a navigator, which is a multi-wire thing that almost always has to be done through a GAD29 box that you have to mount somewhere.  There's an OAT probe option which gives you true airspeed data that may be in the shop quote.  If you want altitude data sent to the transponder for serial altitude encoding, that's another G5 -> GAD29 -> transponder connection.  Autopilot interface is another GAD29 connection.  All this stuff involves disassembling existing connectors and adding additional pins to them.

The mechanical mounting of the magnetometer and GAD is some of the work, and the addition of pins/crimps/solder joints to connect up the nav box and transponder and OAT probe is quite a lot of work.  And while we joke a little about the "Mooney tax", the tight space behind the panel in the average Mooney really does make the job worse.  You have to build a shelf behind the panel for the GAD29, or alternatively put it in the tail cone and remove the interior to run the wiring up to the panel.

That's what I thought too, but it took me a little over two weeks of working more-or less full time (not including weekends).  I'm slow, though, and of course it goes faster if you've done it before.  Again, not trying to justify the shop's quote, which I agree sounds exorbitant even at 80+ hours of labor.

But bottom line, there's a big difference between an ADI vs. an HSI installation for any of the G5/GI-275/AV-30.  Again, @Jake@BevanAviation hit the nail on the head when he pointed out that it's all about the connectivity you want, and that's mostly on the HSI side.  You can whittle down the cost by connecting less stuff, but only at the tradeoff of reduced capability.

connecting things isn't overly difficult, the g5 system is mostly connected with a number of 2 wire busses, can, arinc and serial.  

i had the whole thign wired up onmy bench in less than an hour.  now snaking all that wire thru the plane while making sure it's all white and indistinguishable, thats the money maker.

I really like the dynon setup, mostly a bunch off preconfigured 9 pin dsub connections between the dynon components,.

oh yeah and they have the mounting shelves so most of it can go in as a unit

 

 

Edited October 21, 2024 by McMooney

[laytonl]

On 10/17/2024 at 7:54 PM, Utah20Gflyer said:

I think the Uavionix products are acceptable with the addition of a magnetometer which I think is still in the approval process for certified planes.   So maybe not quite ready for prime time but getting close.  
 

I did two GI275s and they are great.  I like that two of them replaces the entire 6 pack.  The AV30 and G5 you only get to replace 2 instruments and have to keep the other 4 legacy instruments.   I like the idea of getting rid of things that have to be maintained.   I did keep my airspeed indicator but got rid of the others and created room for a panel mounted I phone max that I display foreflight on.  

Actually the magnetometer is certified.  I have one for my AV30C’s in the citabria.  It still has to be reset occasionally, but it’s not unusual for the DG to go several days without needing to reset to the compass.  The Av30 is a great device, and can be a good transitional unit.  If you are not comfortable with it as your primary DG, you can always repurpose it as a backup AI.  Lee

[Vance Harral]

1 hour ago, McMooney said:

i had the whole thign wired up onmy bench in less than an hour.  now snaking all that wire thru the plane while making sure it's all white and indistinguishable, thats the money maker

I think I'm agreeing with you when I say that wiring stuff up on the bench is a somewhat uninteresting experiment, and not indicative of the labor to actually install the system.  In addition to not having to worry about routing, you also don't have to secure anything in a way that will hold up to years of airframe vibration.

For us, feeding wire through nooks and crannies of the airframe was not really all that labor intensive either.  The real bear is that unless you're (re)building the entire system from scratch, you have to disassemble the D-shell connectors that are already plugged into existing components in-situ, to add new pins (and if you're doing the work cleanly, to remove old ones as well).  That's not something you're going to get a handle on with bench testing.  In our case, getting access to the D-shell connectors for the GTN-650 ARINC connections was extremely difficult, and we had to de-socket over a dozen of those micro-sized pins for the no-longer-needed GI-106 connection as well (a lot of shops simply don't do that sort of thing, they just cut the wires).  The transponder D-shells were a little more accessible but not much.  Again, there's sort of a Mooney tax here due to the limited space behind the panel.  Depending on how prior work was installed, it can be incredibly difficult to add new work without damaging anything -  especially since some of the newer Garmin gizmos have the configuration ROM embedded in the connector, with tiny, fragile wires.  If you damage any existing work you have to repair it, which is a lot harder than installing new stuff from scratch.  And the damage may not be apparent until you start trying to bring up the system after initial installation, in which case you have to debug, then go back and disassemble things again.  You can probably guess how I know all this.

None of the work strikes me as particularly difficult, just tedious and time consuming.  Again, pros make fewer mistakes, and I'm not trying to justify exorbitant shop rates that seem to be based on what the market will bear rather than dollars-per-hour labor.  I'm just scarred by the experience of thinking it would take X amount of time, being "smart" enough to plan for 2X, and then discovering once again that things often wind up taking about double your 2X estimate.   Like doing your own plumbing at home, the labor cost often seems more reasonable once you've actually tried doing the job yourself (successfully or not).

[Ragsf15e]

Nobody mentioned working inside the wing (or tailcone - which requires hiring a very light midget with small feet) to build a shelf for the magnometor or removing/replacing all the pilots side interior.  Those can take some time to do right depending on the airplane.

My 2 G5s connected to gns430w and autopilot were about $12k in 2020, so these estimates seem reasonable?

Edited October 22, 2024 by Ragsf15e

[Yetti]

Working my way through planning the late 1900s panel in the S Model. The King 89B is still cranking out data with it's 8 satellites, but it may be time.

Got a quote for GTX 375, two Garmin GI275.   Then flew with my instructor who is suggesting a GTN750 with Remote Audio and Remote Transponder.      Reevaluating my life choices as to what is an acceptable Christmas present this year. 

What I am seeing is that for about $5k for a GPS175, two AV-30s I could be pretty good shape for $10K.  Possibly add one more AV-30 for Traffic display.    The AV-30s are now supporting the STEC auto pilots.  Still missing the Engine Monitor part which sends me in the Dynon direction, but this may be a good first step.

 

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

Working my way through planning the late 1900s panel in the S Model. The King 89B is still cranking out data with it's 8 satellites, but it may be time.

Got a quote for GTX 375, two Garmin GI275.   Then flew with my instructor who is suggesting a GTN750 with Remote Audio and Remote Transponder.      Reevaluating my life choices as to what is an acceptable Christmas present this year. 

What I am seeing is that for about $5k for a GPS175, two AV-30s I could be pretty good shape for $10K.  Possibly add one more AV-30 for Traffic display.    The AV-30s are now supporting the STEC auto pilots.  Still missing the Engine Monitor part which sends me in the Dynon direction, but this may be a good first step.

 

 

Whatever you choose needs to revolve around the autopilot. STec has changed hands a few times and their support is not what it used to be. I wouldn't bank on a lot of future long term support for the STec 30. If you plan on never changing out your autopilot, keeping a few spare parts on hand from what other people have pulled out is not a bad idea. 

The GI275s are more money than the AV-30s but someday in the future if you ever switch over to a Garmin autopilot you'll have what you need. Factoring in the Moritz engine gauges you have, which will fail at some point, a third GI-275 for an engine monitor would cover you. Garmin has some rebates going right now. Once you go to that many GI-275s though it's worth considering a G3X since you can display engine functions on there as well . .  .  these are not easy projects to figure out and there isn't just one answer. In the long run it's better to know what you want and do it all in one upgrade rather than doing it in stages. Going back in is always moire expensive.

If you already have a GTX345 transponder you could go with a basic GPS175. But if you have a legacy Mode C transponder with just an ADS-B out add-on solution, the GTX375 would give you everything that the GTX345 transponder does and everything that the GPS175 does. The large GTN750 is nice, but with tablets and portables  you can have a nice map without spending that much. 

 

[Ragsf15e]

Personally I’m not 100% sold on the remote audio panel.  Transponder, yes, but audio panel, no.  Id rather have a regular audio panel.  I have a gtn750xi with remote audio and it’s great, but if I had paid and planned it myself, I would have done a 650xi (or gnx, gnc as you mentioned) and a remote transponder, but a real audio panel.  I’m sure the 650/750 is great, but I don’t think it’s that much “greater” than the gnx, gnc, etc series.

[Yetti]

19 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Personally I’m not 100% sold on the remote audio panel.  Transponder, yes, but audio panel, no.  Id rather have a regular audio panel.  I have a gtn750xi with remote audio and it’s great, but if I had paid and planned it myself, I would have done a 650xi (or gnx, gnc as you mentioned) and a remote transponder, but a real audio panel.  I’m sure the 650/750 is great, but I don’t think it’s that much “greater” than the gnx, gnc, etc series.

I have had a "did not like the 650 that much" comment from one friend.   and a "you need the remote audio panel to unlock the voice commands on the 750" comment from a friend.   

[Yetti]

58 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Whatever you choose needs to revolve around the autopilot. STec has changed hands a few times and their support is not what it used to be. I wouldn't bank on a lot of future long term support for the STec 30. If you plan on never changing out your autopilot, keeping a few spare parts on hand from what other people have pulled out is not a bad idea. 

The GI275s are more money than the AV-30s but someday in the future if you ever switch over to a Garmin autopilot you'll have what you need. Factoring in the Moritz engine gauges you have, which will fail at some point, a third GI-275 for an engine monitor would cover you. Garmin has some rebates going right now. Once you go to that many GI-275s though it's worth considering a G3X since you can display engine functions on there as well . .  .  these are not easy projects to figure out and there isn't just one answer. In the long run it's better to know what you want and do it all in one upgrade rather than doing it in stages. Going back in is always moire expensive.

If you already have a GTX345 transponder you could go with a basic GPS175. But if you have a legacy Mode C transponder with just an ADS-B out add-on solution, the GTX375 would give you everything that the GTX345 transponder does and everything that the GPS175 does. The large GTN750 is nice, but with tablets and portables  you can have a nice map without spending that much. 

 

King Transponder with a tail beacon.   The STEC A/P does seem to be a $30K question.     It looks like the STec 180 HSI has a big ole 3lbs gyro in the tail cone.  Just replacing the HSI would be a big upgrade.   

In reading the Precise Flight Speed Brake STC from 1990 it stopped at the K model, but they went ahead and put them in the R and S models.     

Would seem to make sense that the Dynon J and K model auto pilot would work on the R and S Model.   Everything Flight inst, Engine Monitor, Transponder except A/P in the Dynon line would cost $24K    

[LANCECASPER]

54 minutes ago, Yetti said:

King Transponder with a tail beacon.   The STEC A/P does seem to be a $30K question.     It looks like the STec 180 HSI has a big ole 3lbs gyro in the tail cone.  Just replacing the HSI would be a big upgrade.   

In reading the Precise Flight Speed Brake STC from 1990 it stopped at the K model, but they went ahead and put them in the R and S models.     

Would seem to make sense that the Dynon J and K model auto pilot would work on the R and S Model.   Everything Flight inst, Engine Monitor, Transponder except A/P in the Dynon line would cost $24K    

The transponder/GPS might be a good solution then. The King transponders have a cavity tube that eventually fails. 

The STec-30 is a wing leveler than will fly nav and heading with altitude hold, but it is not set up to fly approaches. If it does everything you want, then build your panel around it. But looking into the future the GFC500 is the one that will be supported the best. Take the time to decide the autopilot. It is so much more expensive to do it half way on the first upgrade and then change direction on the next one. It's better and less expensive in the long run to do it once and do it right.

I'm pretty sure there have been Eagles (M20S) with Speed Brakes. Check with Precise Flight https://preciseflight.com/product/2000-series-speedbrakes-for-mooney-m20-series/

Dynon was trying to get an "M20" approval for all Mooney airframes, but since Dynon owns a mid body (J model) and they tested it in a mid body, the FAA would only approve the J & K. A lot had to do with the fact that Garmin did three separate flight tests and approvals on (1) short body, (2) mid body and (3) long body Mooneys. 

What I've heard people paying, all-in for a Dynon panel with labor, new panel, etc is $40,000, but that included A/P on a K, but assumes that you already have an WAAS GPS.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

I have had a "did not like the 650 that much" comment from one friend.   and a "you need the remote audio panel to unlock the voice commands on the 750" comment from a friend.   

I have the “telligence” voice thing.  The one thing I wanted from it was to “flip/flop” the active/standby radio freq.  guess what?  It can’t do that!  I don’t use it at all.  
If the gtn controlling your audio panel dies/freezes, you lose a lot.  It is “supposed” to automatically revert to comm2…. Id much rather lose control of my transponder than my audio panel.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Personally I’m not 100% sold on the remote audio panel.  Transponder, yes, but audio panel, no.  Id rather have a regular audio panel.  I have a gtn750xi with remote audio and it’s great, but if I had paid and planned it myself, I would have done a 650xi (or gnx, gnc as you mentioned) and a remote transponder, but a real audio panel.  I’m sure the 650/750 is great, but I don’t think it’s that much “greater” than the gnx, gnc, etc series.

Agreed.  I went with remote transponder, but put in a PS Engineering 450B audio panel.  One reason is the remote audio panel took up a lot of space on the 750 display.

[Ragsf15e]

5 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Agreed.  I went with remote transponder, but put in a PS Engineering 450B audio panel.  One reason is the remote audio panel took up a lot of space on the 750 display.

I don’t notice it taking up much space on a 750, but maybe more noticeable on a 650?  When you open the audio panel it does go full screen though.  (The black line is an artifact in the image)

[Max Clark]

The remote audio and transponder fill up info boxes or shortcut toggles on the gtn. The 750 is already information dense, I haven't wished I had more on the display.

I do have the G3x so that probably helps.

[Yetti]

Good feedback.  Thanks guys. 

[Ragsf15e]

43 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Good feedback.  Thanks guys. 

You should probably fly an av-30 before buying one.  A couple people have them (or av-20) as backups and said they are ok, but a little hokey.  @PT20J has one…