What speeds do you use for gear extension and approach flaps?

[Max Clark]

I'm trying to get clarity on gear and flap extension speeds.

My POH (hopefully attached properly below) has an "Approach For Landing" in Normal Procedures:

Landing Gear - Extend below 140 KIAS
Wing Flaps - T/O Position
Wing Flaps - Full Down below 110 KIAS

Which I read this that approach flaps can be used < 140 KIAS and full flaps < 110 KIAS (V_FE). This is exactly what I was taught in transition: speed brakes, gear down, T/O flaps, FULL flaps < 110 KIAS.

But it's odd to me that the POH defines V_FE for FULL flaps, and implies that T/O are < 140 KIAS. Mainly because when I was renting Cessna and Cirrus the POH listed V_FE speeds for all of the flap settings.

The guy I bought the plane from made it a point that I am now the one paying to fix things, so even though V_LO is 140 KIAS he made it a point to always be *much* slower than that.

Hence my question - what speeds do use for approach to landing, gear, flaps, etc...?

Thanks!

 

[LANCECASPER]

On long bodies, <140 for gear extension and <110 for flaps. Since I can't use the POH for an early J model to justify a higher speed T/O flaps in my airplane, I have to use the POH applicable to my serial number and model. Nowhere in my POH does it mention a lower speed for T/O flaps.

If they slam dunk you and you need to, use speed brakes to get to gear extension speed.

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I’d agree with the guy that sold you your plane.  Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.  
 

One of the things you learn flying a Johnson bar Mooney is you want to get your gear up early because the faster you are going the harder it gets.   You don’t get that feedback from an electric gear system but the parts are getting the extra wear and tear anyway.    
 

I try to not drop gear or put in flaps until I hit 100 mph or roughly 90 knots.   This is in a mid body Mooney so that speed may not apply to a long body.   
 

Ultimately it’s your plane and it’s up to you how you want to fly it.  

[midlifeflyer]

I've been in the 10 KIAS below VLO with most airplanes I fly including the Ovation.

I've also been surprised to not see two flap limitations. but when an airplane has only one, I treat is as an overall  limitation to the use of flaps. The alternative is that you can deploy takeoff flaps at any speed. That may be true, 10 degrees flaps doesn't do much in any Mooney I've flown, but I'd have to be convinced. Fortunately, in my case, the addition of any flaps waits until already on the FAS, I'm already below 110 KIAS, so it's not an issue.

[Marc_B]

39 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I've also been surprised to not see two flap limitations

This has been a quandary of mine since I've owned the Mooney.  I feel like there's some simple information that got lost somewhere along the way.  To me it makes no sense that POH calls attention to "full flaps below" X, but never addresses it specifically for is there a limitation of t/o flaps.  Like above, I use flap speed as max for any flaps.

My guess is that when they were writing the spec they tested full flaps to develop a limitation, but never tested out t/o flaps for a limitation.  There probably is a limitation for t/o flaps and it most likely is higher than the value for full flaps...but I don't know how to test that, do you?  Meaning, the safe thing to do is use the full flap value as an "any flaps" value.

 

[midlifeflyer]

4 minutes ago, Marc_B said:

There probably is a limitation for t/o flaps and it most likely is higher than the value for full flaps...but I don't know how to test that, do you? 

I sure don't. Some Mooney models do have the dual flap limitation. This is from a J (KCAS in left column' KIAS in right).  "A" J because only some years have it. Others don't. There's also no dual Vfe in the K or E or C models I've looked at. 

[RoundTwo]

125 is my target.

[PT20J]

If you look at the TCDS, only the M20J "205" has a max speed listed for takeoff flaps. All the others only list a maximum speed for full flaps.

Since there is no speed listed, I guess you would not be violating any limitation if you put down 15 deg flaps at a higher speed than Vfe. But, if you put the flaps to the takeoff position the next time you preflight and grab and shake them, you'll note that this is not the strongest part of the airplane. So personally, I don't extend them at all above 100 KIAS, and I have never seen a need to.

I use 15 deg flaps for takeoff and instrument approaches. My SOP when VFR is to put in full flaps on downwind abeam the numbers. It gets the trim changes over with, allows a nice tight pattern and makes it easy to stay out of the yellow rpm arc on my M20J.

[haymak3r]

While my poh for my 79 says 155(mph) I try to only ever lower the gear in the 140's. I usually try to lower flaps below 120mph. I know I can drop them faster, but by the time I get the gear down, I don't necessarily need to rush the flaps..

[Lax291]

10 hours ago, PT20J said:

If you look at the TCDS, only the M20J "205" has a max speed listed for takeoff flaps. All the others only list a maximum speed for full flaps.

Since there is no speed listed, I guess you would not be violating any limitation if you put down 15 deg flaps at a higher speed than Vfe. But, if you put the flaps to the takeoff position the next time you preflight and grab and shake them, you'll note that this is not the strongest part of the airplane. So personally, I don't extend them at all above 100 KIAS, and I have never seen a need to.

I use 15 deg flaps for takeoff and instrument approaches. My SOP when VFR is to put in full flaps on downwind abeam the numbers. It gets the trim changes over with, allows a nice tight pattern and makes it easy to stay out of the yellow rpm arc on my M20J.

Interesting, I've been flying 15 deg flaps abeam the numbers and 90kts then full flaps base and final at 80kts. I'm always adjusting MP on final to slow down and get the 500' /min descent and feel like Ioney around with it too much. 

What speeds are you flying full flaps abeam, base, and final?  Sounds like you turn final sooner than having the runway at a 45 deg off your side?

[PT20J]

I set power at 20” downwind and put the gear down midfield. Abeam the numbers, I reduce throttle until the rpm is at the top of the yellow arc, set prop hi, and extend full flaps maintaining  pattern altitude until 75 KIAS and then start a descent. The rpm ends up around the bottom of the yellow arc as the airplane slows. By the time I’m set up in a descent at 75 KIAS I’m near the 45 deg point for a base turn. I fly at 75 until final and then slow to final approach speed which is normally about 65 KIAS at around 2400 lbs. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DC_Brasil]

Hello guys,

My 1990 M20J manual isn't exactly clear about Vfe for TO position in the limitations section. It says "do not exceed speed with flaps in full down position". So it is unclear if you can actually operate an intermediary flap position at higher speeds.

 

However, in Section V, performance, there is a table for airspeed calibration using alternate static source. There it shows IAS adjustments for flaps and gear up, gear down and flaps 15, gear down and flaps full. In both flap 15 and full columns, the airspeed values only go up to Vfe. So, I inferred that the flaps full Vfe is also a limitation for flaps 15 (takeoff position).

 

All the best, guys.

DC.

[Will.iam]

On 9/25/2024 at 9:22 AM, Utah20Gflyer said:

I’d agree with the guy that sold you your plane.  Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.  
 

One of the things you learn flying a Johnson bar Mooney is you want to get your gear up early because the faster you are going the harder it gets.   You don’t get that feedback from an electric gear system but the parts are getting the extra wear and tear anyway.    
 

I try to not drop gear or put in flaps until I hit 100 mph or roughly 90 knots.   This is in a mid body Mooney so that speed may not apply to a long body.   
 

Ultimately it’s your plane and it’s up to you how you want to fly it.  

I also agree with this philosophy and the slower the less stress on both the parts and motors. As such on visual patterns that i don’t have ATC slam dunking me which is most of the time i slow down to 80kias before i lower the gear and then the flaps. Yes you have to plan for this by starting the slowdown further out but it is doable. Also i subscribe to the philosophy that at engine shutdown my cht’s are in the low 300’s to upper 280’s which is exactly where my cht’s are at the long descent into the pattern so if the engine hasn’t cracked from the shock cooling of shutdown its not going to at pattern altitude when i pull the throttle to idle which does help slow down faster than with MP at 18”

also just climbing 200ft will accelerate the slow down process to 80kias just descend down to pattern altitude -100ft and climb to pattern altitude +100ft still within PTS standards of maintaining altitude. 

[GeeBee]

On an M20R by definitions of FAR part 1 the maximum flap speed for T/O flaps is top of the green arc and for full flaps is 110. I personally do not like to stress my flaps that much, but those are the limits.

[Max Clark]

7 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

On an M20R by definitions of FAR part 1 the maximum flap speed for T/O flaps is top of the green arc and for full flaps is 110. I personally do not like to stress my flaps that much, but those are the limits.

That's what I was taught

What speeds do you use on yours?

[Crawfish]

I put the gear down somewhere around  115KIAS first notch of flaps at about 95KIAS and work in the rest as I slow. 
 

Trying to put less stress on the airframe than limits. 

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Max Clark said:

That's what I was taught

What speeds do you use on yours?

I put the gear and T/O at 120 or less, full flaps at 90-100

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

On an M20R by definitions of FAR part 1 the maximum flap speed for T/O flaps is top of the green arc and for full flaps is 110. I personally do not like to stress my flaps that much, but those are the limits.

Which Part 1 definition are you referencing?

The only model that Mooney ever published limits for 15-deg flaps is the 205 version of the M20J. That speed was 126 KIAS. Top of the green arc for this airplane is considerably higher at 174 KIAS. 

[GeeBee]

The POH for the M20R states that Vfe is 110 knots for full flaps. It does not specify a Vfe for T/O. Thus Vno maximum structural cruising speed becomes the limit for Vfe T/O as Vno is the maximum speed for activation of other configurations unless otherwise limited which is in the M20R Vfe full, Vle, Vlo (ext), Vlo (ret). You do not know what the limiting structure is at Vno but you can be sure the flap at T/O at or below that speed will not be compromised structurally by definition.

[dkkim73]

32 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

The POH for the M20R states that Vfe is 110 knots for full flaps. It does not specify a Vfe for T/O. Thus Vno maximum structural cruising speed becomes the limit for Vfe T/O as Vno is the maximum speed for activation of other configurations unless otherwise limited which is in the M20R Vfe full, Vle, Vlo (ext), Vlo (ret). You do not know what the limiting structure is at Vno but you can be sure the flap at T/O at or below that speed will not be compromised structurally by definition.

This is very interesting to me. It always seemed to me that Vfe for lower angles of deployment should be higher. I never thought to "work the logic" of the certification definitions. This reasoning would seem to imply that Vfe 10degrees would be a lot higher than we operationally use... scarily higher. I have been taught and practice to get the flaps up not long after take-off. 

Coming home last night, still breaking in cylinders (seeing how the "other half", the ROP-operating folks, live ;)), it was scary how fast the plane picks up speed at high power settings in a descent. Quickly into the Yellow and the G1000 gave me a "hey, dummy look at your airspeed" warning. Keeping 10 degrees up through Vno would feel pretty fast, I think. 

DK

[Max Clark]

I'm learning everything in the Mooney happens fast, except landings which feel painfully slow in comparison.

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

The POH for the M20R states that Vfe is 110 knots for full flaps. It does not specify a Vfe for T/O. Thus Vno maximum structural cruising speed becomes the limit for Vfe T/O as Vno is the maximum speed for activation of other configurations unless otherwise limited which is in the M20R Vfe full, Vle, Vlo (ext), Vlo (ret). You do not know what the limiting structure is at Vno but you can be sure the flap at T/O at or below that speed will not be compromised structurally by definition.

I'm not clear what Vno would have to do with flaps since Vno is just the maximum speed where a 30 fps vertical gust will not exceed the max load factor at gross weight. 

[GeeBee]

FAR 23.2200 d requires accountability for high lift devices.

 

[LANCECASPER]

In 1996 for insurance I needed to go up with an instructor and get a sign-off for a M20M. Since I was buying it from Mooney they sent me up with one of their test pilots, Charley.  (I wish I could read his last name in my logbook.) I had never put flaps in before the white arc on my 231 that i was trading in and he told me not to on the M20M either. So I went with that. 

Two months later Mooney scheduled the Flight Safety Course for me in San Antonio, where all customers who bought new Mooneys were sent to by Mooney back in the 90's. The instructor Chris made the point clear that no flaps come in until the white arc. I don't have the course materials anymore, but when I took the course in '96 for the M20M it was printed in the Flight Safety workbook.

Also Bob Cabe did Mooney transition for the factory in the 2000's (Bravos, Ovations and Acclaims). Insurance didn't require it, but I spent an hour on recurrent training with him on a Mooney Encore in 2014 and he made the same point - no flaps until 110. He mentioned that he had a few people that were transitioning from older Mooneys fight him on that point. He invited them to show him in their new POH for their new airplane where they had authorization to do that. 

That was Mooney's position on it from at least the mid 90's until at least 2014. 

If you're unsure, e-mail fcrawford@mooney.com and I'm sure he can give you Mooney's position on it. 

[GeeBee]

The M20R POH says this:

”Do not exceed this speed with the flaps in the full down position”. It says nothing about the T/O position.

Further the MPPP is training the same way as I submitted and for the same reasons.

The limitation only applies to full down.