NORDO Traffic Conflict (poll)

[201er]

Have you had traffic conflicts, particularly at uncontrolled airport traffic patterns, caused by lack of communication? Would radio communication have prevented the conflict? Was the conflict with an airplane that doesn't have radios or an airplane that has them but wasn't using them (or wasn't using properly)?

[PeteMc]

My issue was at KBID on a typically busy weekend.  As I recall...  there was a slightly extended DW an I was #3 when a Cessna announced entering the DW and it sort of took note because there were a few others in the DW.  #1 guy lands and then new #1 Announces on Final.   I announce #2 Turning Extended Final and the guy behind me Announces #3 Turning Extended Base. 

So now the Cessna announces Turning Base, at which time I speak up with along the lines of "hey Cessna don't turn base you're actually 4 or 5 in the DW."  But he continues.  So I'm watching him a now it's "Hey Cessna, you're about to cut me off" and there's no reply.  As we're converging one what could have been a mid-air I'm tossing out "Hey Cessna on Base, look out your right window, do you see the guy you're about to cut off!"  Still no response shortly after "Cessna turning Final..."  

Once on the ground I had no problem going up to him in front of his 3 Pax and telling him he' lucky they're not all dead.  And his radio was not just for talking but LISTENING too.  Had I not heard or seen him, we would have been that text book mid-air. 

[slowflyin]

What did he have to say?

[PeteMc]

54 minutes ago, slowflyin said:

What did he have to say?

Was that for me?   Your basic deer in the headlights look.  He wasn't that young, but I'm still going to guess a newly minted or low hour pilot.  

But as for the expressions of his Pax, to steel from a commercial, Priceless!  Hopefully it was one of those learning moments that he just didn't forget! 

 

[Vance Harral]

Couple of questions about the poll:

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "conflict"?  If you mean, "I would have died in a midair except for aggressive maneuvering", then I've never had a conflict like that with a NORDO aircraft.  If you mean, "I had to adjust my traffic pattern to a degree bordering on unreasonable", then yeah I've had those sorts of conflicts with NORDO aircraft.  Also with aircraft equipped and using the radio as well, but that's a different question.

Second, does the "has radio but wasn't using" option include pilots that are trying to use the radio and failing due to pilot error/equipment malfunction?  Or only the SOB that has a functioning radio and knows how to use it, but just stubbornly refuses to do so?

 

ETA: can you make the poll multiple choice?  More than one of the answers applies to me, and probably to others.

[201er]

11 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Couple of questions about the poll:

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "conflict"?  If you mean, "I would have died in a midair except for aggressive maneuvering", then I've never had a conflict like that with a NORDO aircraft.  If you mean, "I had to adjust my traffic pattern to a degree bordering on unreasonable", then yeah I've had those sorts of conflicts with NORDO aircraft.  Also with aircraft equipped and using the radio as well, but that's a different question.

Second, does the "has radio but wasn't using" option include pilots that are trying to use the radio and failing due to pilot error/equipment malfunction?  Or only the SOB that has a functioning radio and knows how to use it, but just stubbornly refuses to do so?

 

ETA: can you make the poll multiple choice?  More than one of the answers applies to me, and probably to others.

I believe I set it to multiple choice because it's not one or the other unless you say never.

Probably your second definition of conflict where you had to take some kind of action and it's bordering on unreasonable. Those who've had a midair probably aren't around to vote about it.

Yeah, not using the radio as far as you can tell (assuming you are certain you were on the right right frequency because you heard other traffic and they heard you).

"I was in a radio equipped plane causing it" might involve beautifully announcing every intention just to later learn you were on the wrong frequency or your headset mic cord wasn't plugged in. Having a windscreen full of airplane and cursing the idiot off for not listening to your announcements turns into regret when you later learn of your own mistake.

[Vance Harral]

5 minutes ago, 201er said:

"I was in a radio equipped plane causing it" might involve beautifully announcing every intention just to later learn you were on the wrong frequency or your headset mic cord wasn't plugged in. Having a windscreen full of airplane and cursing the idiot off for not listening to your announcements turns into regret when you later learn of your own mistake.

I didn't get a windscreen full of airplane, but have indeed been the guy making beautiful announcements on the wrong frequency twice (that I know of) in my CTAF career.  It's a humiliating mistake.  It's also made me a lot more humble about calling other pilots idiots and imbeciles.  Anyway, I must have missed the multiple choice the first time around, and looks like you can't change a vote once made; but you should add one to the "I was in a NORDO aircraft causing it" category.

3 hours ago, 201er said:

Would radio communication have prevented the conflict?

This is the heart of the concern, but I'm not sure how anyone can truthfully answer the question.  People who bemoan the NORDO conundrum are always going to claim that radio communication would have prevented the conflict in their particular sob story.  But there's no way to be certain of this, and plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. For example, @PeteMc's story above has nothing to do with radio equippage, or failure/refusal to use that equipment.  It's just a pilot who lacked SA, made a bad plan, broadcast his bad plan, and proceeded to make position reports while executing his bad plan.  That's not a NORDO problem.  On the contrary, it is in fact a radio "success", because at least the bad guy's CTAF broadcasts gave others a heads-up about his lack of SA.

[Hank]

When I was a student pilot, we went 10 minutes down the river so I could learn ti land with open approaches; our field was obstructed at both ends, one with a displaced threshold. But I was warned, and noticed myself, that pilots at the other field frequently didn't talk on the radio.

Then on my solo, there was a Kitfox at our field. Taildraggers often landed in the grass beside our 3000' runway with no taxiway.

• Made a few dual landings before solo, with the Kitfox in the pattern. He never spoke on the radio, and never did anything to indicate that he heard our radio calls.
• First landing, then backtaxi. The Kitfox is on short final, so I dodged into the grass so he could land. Then returned to the runway to complete backtaxi.
• Second landing, I called "backtaxiing in the grass" to get out of his way. So he lined up to land in the grass, and I had to dodge back onto the pavement.
• The FBO owner went to talk to them, because there was still no response when he said "please fly a standard pattern, we're about to solo a student" on the radio. But it did get me an audience! 

So I've had intermittent communication problems since very early in my flying career. 

Most recently I was the problem. I made all of the announcements beginning 10nm south if the field, practice GPS approach, miss to VFR pattern and land. Someone approached me at the gas pump and said they didn't hear me on the radio; I had also not heard any of their calls. When I cranked up to leave the pump, CTAF was in the lower position on the Garmin--did I forget to press the flip flop? Did it not change? Did it change when I pressed it, then change again when I let go? I've had all of these happen.

So it depends, it can affect us at any time, and it can be us at any time. 

P.S.--I can't change my vote, from #1 to #1, 2 & 4.

[Shadrach]

47 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

the wrong frequency twice (that I know of) in my CTAF career.  It's a humiliating mistake. 

That ranks right up there with looking at an airport that is 10 miles northeast of you and then making an initial call to the tower or CTAF that you are 10 miles northeast of the field.

[201er]

23 minutes ago, Hank said:

P.S.--I can't change my vote, from #1 to #1, 2 & 4.

There used to be an option to let participants change their vote. I'm all for that but for some reason I can't find that option. Does someone know how to activate that or is it gone for good?

[wombat]

I had a traffic conflict once.    I was on base to runway 2 at KPWT, a NORDO aircraft was on the wrong side base to 20, not talking.    He apparently was on frequency, because someone on the ground radioed "Mooney turning from right base to final, there is another aircraft turning from left base to final right under you, be careful!"  And I responded with "I can't see him, I'll go around" and added power.   Then and only then did the other guy pipe up and say "That's me, I'll just leave to the North."