Adding Autopilot to a J

[Slick Nick]

I just picked up a 1991 J model, (AT / MSE?) it's still got the factory avionics in it. All Bendix King stuff. My plane never had autopilot or electric trim installed when it left the factory. How much work would it be to install an autopilot or electric trim system? I’m planning on eventually doing a full Garmin stack, but for now I just want to get an idea of how much extra work is involved installing an autopilot on a plane that never had electric trim from the factory, vs one that did. Has anyone ever updated any of the “lean machines” of that era to use an autopilot? I’ve found lots of info here on retrofitting the classic Mooneys, but not much with a later model J.

I should add that autopilot isn’t a must for me, but if it was something that could easily be added when I do the stack, it might be worth considering. 

Edited August 4 by Slick Nick

[NickG]

from one Nick to another…

I would think an autopilot should be right up there on the list. The workload in the modern airspace environment is high and in my opinion, an AP eases the workload and is a must have.

Of course, plenty of people will disagree with me and their opinions are no more valid than mine. 
 

And then there’s the Nordo crowd who like to keep things just as they were when then Wright Flyer made its maiden flight……

[Slick Nick]

Appreciate the reply. I’m more interested in the logistics of installing an autopilot in the plane, as opposed to whether or not I should. I’m not an avionics guy, so I don’t know what’s involved. If there are a ton of actuators, trim motors, etc required (that I don’t currently have) it might change which direction I go with an avionics package. 

[Fly Boomer]

9 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

If there are a ton of actuators, trim motors, etc required

All that and more.  I know you just got your airplane, but it might be cheaper to get a different airplane than to start from zero.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

I just picked up a 1991 J model, (205 / MSE) it's still got the factory avionics in it. All Bendix King stuff. My plane never had autopilot or electric trim installed when it left the factory. How much work would it be to install an autopilot or electric trim system? I’m planning on eventually doing a full Garmin stack, but for now I just want to get an idea of how much extra work is involved installing an autopilot on a plane that never had electric trim from the factory, vs one that did. Has anyone ever updated any of the “lean machines” of that era to use an autopilot? I’ve found lots of info here on retrofitting the classic Mooneys, but not much with a later model J.

I should add that autopilot isn’t a must for me, but if it was something that could easily be added when I do the stack, it might be worth considering. 

Installations of various autopilots vary significantly, so there isn't a lot of re-use of installation infrastructure when installing a new one.   So the main difference in installing any of the autopilots in your airplane is that in your case nothing needs to be ripped out, so that'll save some effort.

[Slick Nick]

4 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Installations of various autopilots vary significantly, so there isn't a lot of re-use of installation infrastructure when installing a new one.   So the main difference in installing any of the autopilots in your airplane is that in your case nothing needs to be ripped out, so that'll save some effort.

That is exactly the information I was looking for. Thanks!

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

I just picked up a 1991 J model, (205 / MSE) it's still got the factory avionics in it. All Bendix King stuff. My plane never had autopilot or electric trim installed when it left the factory. How much work would it be to install an autopilot or electric trim system? I’m planning on eventually doing a full Garmin stack, but for now I just want to get an idea of how much extra work is involved installing an autopilot on a plane that never had electric trim from the factory, vs one that did. Has anyone ever updated any of the “lean machines” of that era to use an autopilot? I’ve found lots of info here on retrofitting the classic Mooneys, but not much with a later model J.

I should add that autopilot isn’t a must for me, but if it was something that could easily be added when I do the stack, it might be worth considering. 

It's a little confusing from your description to understand what version J you have because you describe it as a 1991 (205/MSE) and also mention lean machine.  I believe 205s were only built in 1987-88. MSEs were the last J models built from 1991-1996 but I believe they all had autopilots. The lean machine was built in 1998. After that, the stripped down trainer version (AT) was built in 1989-1991. Since you don't have autopilot or electric trim, it sounds like you have a 1991 201AT.

Adding an autopilot is fairly expensive. If you really plan to go Garmin eventually, you will want a Garmin autopilot (GFC 500). The GFC 500 however requires a Garmin PFD (G3X, G5 or GI 275) because most of the autopilot software is in the PFD which is different from most other autopilots where the brains are in a separate autopilot computer.

It took my shop a day to remove my old autopilot (KAP 150) in order to install the GFC 500 in my MSE. So that's about $1K labor.

[Slick Nick]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

It's a little confusing from your description to understand what version J you have because you describe it as a 1991 (205/MSE) and also mention lean machine.  I believe 205s were only built in 1987-88. MSEs were the last J models built from 1991-1996 but I believe they all had autopilots. The lean machine was built in 1998. After that, the stripped down trainer version (AT) was built in 1989-1991. Since you don't have autopilot or electric trim, it sounds like you have a 1991 201AT.

Adding an autopilot is fairly expensive. If you really plan to go Garmin eventually, you will want a Garmin autopilot (GFC 500). The GFC 500 however requires a Garmin PFD (G3X, G5 or GI 275) because most of the autopilot software is in the PFD which is different from most other autopilots where the brains are in a separate autopilot computer.

It took my shop a day to remove my old autopilot (KAP 150) in order to install the GFC 500 in my MSE. So that's about $1K labor.

Thank you for the help. I only mentioned the “lean machine” because that was the only version besides the AT that I knew to have no autopilot. I believe now that it is an AT, (original post edited to reflect) however a search of the serial number on a few spreadsheets I found online list it as an MSE, and outside the window of AT’s manufactured for 1991. I’ve found conflicting info on the 205’s as well. Perhaps someone here can help me clear it up? It’s got the round windows, landing lights in the wings instead of lower cowl, and enclosed wingtips. A Flying magazine I have lists the round windows as features of the 205, unless this became standard later on on all 201’s and AT’s? (July 2010 issue.)

The things that lead me to believe it’s an AT, is that the engine gauges are large, and located in the center panel, just to the left of the radios, instead of over by the circuit breakers. Dual brakes. No electric trim or autopilot as mentioned before, and manual cowl flaps. came equipped with HSI, CDI and RMI for round dials, and dual altimeters.  I’m not sure if this layout has anything to do with the AT, or if it’s just how it was spec’d when it left the factory. The instrument panel is the same cream color as the MSE’’s, however the yokes just have the mooney logo and not the “special edition” badging, for what it’s worth. Interestingly, the original POH is not for the advanced trainer version, (those have AT printed in the top centre of the page) as well I believe the certified gross weight of the AT’s was 2740, vs the 2900 that I’ve got. Hopefully someone somewhere can shed some light on some of this one day because it’s clear as mud to me. 

Edited August 4 by Slick Nick

[Slick Nick]

Looking at this thread here: 

 

It could even be an MSE limited. The chronology listed here: 

https://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

Going by my serial number, says that in 1991 there were only MSE’s and MSE Limited’s produced. No AT’s until well outside my serial number range, and not until 1992. Dual brakes and manual cowl flaps were options on MSE Limited’s…

My head hurts…

[hais]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

It took my shop a day to remove my old autopilot (KAP 150) in order to install the GFC 500 in my MSE. So that's about $1K labor.

One day? If I said I weren't jealous, I'd be lying...

[ArtVandelay]

Appreciate the reply. I’m more interested in the logistics of installing an autopilot in the plane, as opposed to whether or not I should. I’m not an avionics guy, so I don’t know what’s involved. If there are a ton of actuators, trim motors, etc required (that I don’t currently have) it might change which direction I go with an avionics package. 

The only logistics you need to know is where to get the $20k (assuming Garmin 3 servos installation, not including GPS navigator). You can’t install the Garmin certified stuff yourself, only dealers can do it.

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

The only logistics you need to know is where to get the $20k (assuming Garmin 3 servos installation, not including GPS navigator). You can’t install the Garmin certified stuff yourself, only dealers can do it.

I know two people who have installed their own certified GFC 500 systems.

[PT20J]

9 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

Looking at this thread here: 

 

It could even be an MSE limited. The chronology listed here: 

https://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

Going by my serial number, says that in 1991 there were only MSE’s and MSE Limited’s produced. No AT’s until well outside my serial number range, and not until 1992. Dual brakes and manual cowl flaps were options on MSE Limited’s…

My head hurts…

Contact Mooney if you really want to know. Mooney will have build records by serial number. 

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I know two people who have installed their own certified GFC 500 systems.

Can be done, but not accessible for many.

 

[Slick Nick]

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

The only logistics you need to know is where to get the $20k (assuming Garmin 3 servos installation, not including GPS navigator). You can’t install the Garmin certified stuff yourself, only dealers can do it.

I never assumed I could install it myself. The point of the thread was asking what exactly is involved in an autopilot install, as far as reusing any of the factory components. A consideration for me, since my plane wasn’t equipped with electric trim or AP from the factory. I’m not an avionics guy, so I had no idea if any of that stuff was generally reused. 

[EricJ]

6 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

I never assumed I could install it myself. The point of the thread was asking what exactly is involved in an autopilot install, as far as reusing any of the factory components. A consideration for me, since my plane wasn’t equipped with electric trim or AP from the factory. I’m not an avionics guy, so I had no idea if any of that stuff was generally reused. 

It varies among the autopilots.    The Garmin GFC500 is an expensive installation, but a very good autopilot.    There are a couple other pending options that are easier (and cheaper) installations.   Garmin made the installation complicated for some reason, but it works.

[N201MKTurbo]

45 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Can be done, but not accessible for many.

 

They are both A&Ps and friends with the dealer. And it took months to finish.

[toto]

39 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

I never assumed I could install it myself. The point of the thread was asking what exactly is involved in an autopilot install, as far as reusing any of the factory components. A consideration for me, since my plane wasn’t equipped with electric trim or AP from the factory. I’m not an avionics guy, so I had no idea if any of that stuff was generally reused. 

For whatever it’s worth, I’ve had a GFC500 installed in an a/c that did not come with a factory autopilot, and another GFC500 installed in an aircraft that did come with a factory autopilot, and install times were comparable.

As @EricJ said above, you’ll save a little time that the shop would have had to spend ripping out the old AP, and that’s only to your benefit. I don’t have the sense that much is reused from the factory, and every install is essentially a custom install, so you should be fine. 

My advice would be to get a couple of quotes from avionics shops that have done GFC500 installs in Mooneys, and make sure they know there’s no AP in there now. I suspect it’s a total non-issue. 

[Aerodon]

I think it is misleading to say there is a lot of work in removing the old autopilot.  An installer has to open up all the side panels and instrument panel anyway.  Once it is all open, I think it took me about 2 hours to remove the old KFC150 autopilot.  The KFC150 aileron servo mounting can be reused for a GFC500 autopilot, I figure this saves several hours labor.

Without a doubt, a GFC500 would be a great addition to a 1991 M20J.

 

Aerodon

[N201MKTurbo]

My experience casually watching these installs is, it is more A&P type work than avionics type work. 

[Aerodon]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

My experience casually watching these installs is, it is more A&P type work than avionics type work. 

Yes, my local avionics shops subcontracts the neighbouring shop to install the brackets, cables and servos.  There is surprisingly little wiring with a GFC500 compared with say a KFC150.  And it is feasible to pre-manufacture the harness for a GFC500.  Aileron servo connector needs to be installed after pulling the wires through.  The elevator servo connectors can be pulled all the way through on an M20K.

Aerodon

 

[EricJ]

35 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

There is surprisingly little wiring with a GFC500 compared with say a KFC150.  And it is feasible to pre-manufacture the harness for a GFC500.

That's the miracle of the modern serial bus;  very few wires and everything gets interconnected.   Pre-manufactured harnesses have been  a thing for autopilots for a long time.   The harness for the Century III that was installed in my airplane at the factory has a bunch of big loops where it was way bigger than it needed to be so they just coiled it up.   I suspect it was designed for a King Air or something.      The BK Aerocruz comes with a harness, or at least it's an option to order.   It's not unusual since the wiring diagram is pretty consistent from airplane to airplane.

 

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, EricJ said:

It varies among the autopilots.    The Garmin GFC500 is an expensive installation, but a very good autopilot.    There are a couple other pending options that are easier (and cheaper) installations.   Garmin made the installation complicated for some reason, but it works.

According to my shop, Garmin copied a lot of the BK install.  Some of the servo brackets look identical.