Modded F versus J

[Fly Boomer]

7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The one piece belly ads weight (~15lbs) for the convenience of easier removal.

I'm surprised.  Got the belly off my 252 recently, and was stunned by how little it weighs.

[ArtVandelay]

I'm surprised.  Got the belly off my 252 recently, and was stunned by how little it weighs.

I don’t know where he heard that, my fiberglass one is a negligible difference of W&B according to STC and is very light weight. Probably the 100 screws that are removed weigh almost as much.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

If you want a 200 HP NA Mooney and are the type that thinks a couple of kts in either purchase price or mods is worth tens of thousands of dollars then in my opinion you want a J.

If you either don’t want to spend the cash, or can’t afford the buy in price, then you want an F.

I wanted a J because it’s what I flew back in I think 92 to get my Commercial / Instrument, a couple of brand new AT’s and have wanted a Mooney ever since, but I needed tailwheel time when I Retired from the Army and bought a Maule instead, then had use of a C-210 so I didn’t need a Mooney. Interesting to me was the Maule and C-210 burned exactly the same amount of fuel over a distance, but the 210 was 25 kts faster and had two extra seats and lots more useful load. But then strange as this sounds but my J gets much better fuel mileage than a Piper Cub.

I think best bang for the buck may be an F, but they are getting old, but then so are the J’s. I think by the time an airplane hits 30 or so age is irrelevant, then it’s condition and maybe airframe hours.

If you have money and want speed, then I don’t think either an F or a J will do, you need a “Big Block” Mooney, because there isn’t any replacement for displacement  

True words indeed. I've run the Ovation numbers. It's about 30 mins faster on a 500nm trip operated at 175kts. Most will have ~100lbs less payload than my F for the same trip with reserves. Stretch it out to 800NM and the Ovation beats the F by 1hr and 20mins but the delta in payload favors the F by 150lbs.  At that point, if you have a family, you are either flying over gross or stopping for fuel (negating the speed advantage).

I know many of you limit trips to 3hours.  My dad was not so considerate in my youth. I remember doing Nonstop from from New Orleans to Hagerstown MD (838NM) as a kid. To be fair, we were accustomed to extended aerial road trips around the country in the Mooney. No iPad nor Nintendo Switch, just a stack of choose your own adventure novels.

[Shadrach]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:27 PM, ArtVandelay said:

I don’t know where he heard that, my fiberglass one is a negligible difference of W&B according to STC and is very light weight. Probably the 100 screws that are removed weigh almost as much.

Not all belly mods are equal. The original fiber glass mod is  ~20lbs. There was an updated version that came out about 10 years ago that was supposedly much lighter.

[Shadrach]

37 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I'm surprised.  Got the belly off my 252 recently, and was stunned by how little it weighs.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

I'm surprised.  Got the belly off my 252 recently, and was stunned by how little it weighs.

 

51 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Not all belly mods are equal. The original fiber glass mod is around ~20lbs. There was an updated version that came out about 10 years ago that was supposedly much lighter.

In 2005 I had the Mooney Factory install a one piece smooth belly on my J in place of the aluminum panels and screws.  The factory log entry stated "Weight and Balance Change Negligible"

KNR, historically one of the most reputable sources of Mooney maintenance information, says that the Factory one piece belly, developed in 1984, can save 3-4 lbs. over the aluminum panels and screws.

"In 1984, Mooney developed a one-piece composite belly panel that when removed, exposes all the equipment from the flap motor to the aileron control links. This panel attaches with approximately 36 cam locks so it came off in a few minutes instead of spending a half an hour removing striped-out screws and pulling panels off.

Once completed, this conversion amounts to a weight savings of 3 to 4 pounds. Mooney never provided this in kit form so this article includes a complete parts list, as you have to purchase each part. Because the F and G models never came with the one-piece belly from the factory, this modification requires a 337 field approval. The J and K models only require a return-to-service logbook entry."

200710 Smooth Out Your Belly (knr-inc.com)

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[KSMooniac]

When talking about the 1-pc belly mods, keep in mind there are (were) different options.  I believe the factory fiberglass version to be pretty light, or negligible increase compared to the aluminum panels + hardware.  I hope to finally complete my conversion this winter, and I plan to weigh everything going in and coming out.

There were some different aftermarket options over the years too, and I believe some of those were noticeably heavier than the factory part.  The notable exception was the Bill Wheat/Dugosh STC for a carbon fiber belly!  I believe that was a little lighter than the factory fiberglass, but you would lose the ability to bury antennas inside it.

I continue to be very happy with my '77 J.  I was originally searching for a modified E or F, but this J appeared locally at the right time, and I was able to stretch (er, my bank was, anyway) to get it.  Over the last 16+ years I've tried to incrementally improve it to suit my desires, reduce drag, improve utility, etc.  At the Caravan staging in Madison last month, Paul Maxwell brought another experienced owner over to mine and asked him to identify what year model it was, and he failed.   "Well, it's not a '77 unless somebody went to the trouble to delete the throttle quadrant..." was my favorite utterance while he was walking around it.  I still need to tweak rigging after recent work, and do some real flight tests to verify ASI accuracy, but I'm measurably faster than I was a few years ago before embarking on big drag reduction steps.  Yesterday at lowish altitude and some bumpy air, I was in the 155-157 KTAS range at 9.7 GPH, if the speedo is correct.  Solo, but full tanks, dog, and a fair amount of stuff in the back.  That used to be 147-150 KTAS.  Looking back after all of these incremental changes, I realize I would have done the same thing if I bought an F!  Oh well.  

Hartzell is developing a 2-blade composite prop with the current Top Prop geometry that might be a very intriguing upgrade for our fleet.  <40 lbs for the kit...noticeably better than the metal option, and even lighter than the 3-blade MT.  Getting weight off the nose is a very good thing for most Mooneys.

[EricJ]

29 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

When talking about the 1-pc belly mods, keep in mind there are (were) different options.  I believe the factory fiberglass version to be pretty light, or negligible increase compared to the aluminum panels + hardware.  I hope to finally complete my conversion this winter, and I plan to weigh everything going in and coming out.

There were some different aftermarket options over the years too, and I believe some of those were noticeably heavier than the factory part.  The notable exception was the Bill Wheat/Dugosh STC for a carbon fiber belly!  I believe that was a little lighter than the factory fiberglass, but you would lose the ability to bury antennas inside it.

I continue to be very happy with my '77 J.  I was originally searching for a modified E or F, but this J appeared locally at the right time, and I was able to stretch (er, my bank was, anyway) to get it.  Over the last 16+ years I've tried to incrementally improve it to suit my desires, reduce drag, improve utility, etc.  At the Caravan staging in Madison last month, Paul Maxwell brought another experienced owner over to mine and asked him to identify what year model it was, and he failed.   "Well, it's not a '77 unless somebody went to the trouble to delete the throttle quadrant..." was my favorite utterance while he was walking around it.  I still need to tweak rigging after recent work, and do some real flight tests to verify ASI accuracy, but I'm measurably faster than I was a few years ago before embarking on big drag reduction steps.  Yesterday at lowish altitude and some bumpy air, I was in the 155-157 KTAS range at 9.7 GPH, if the speedo is correct.  Solo, but full tanks, dog, and a fair amount of stuff in the back.  That used to be 147-150 KTAS.  Looking back after all of these incremental changes, I realize I would have done the same thing if I bought an F!  Oh well.  

I still think deleting the quadrant is akin to heresy. 

29 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Hartzell is developing a 2-blade composite prop with the current Top Prop geometry that might be a very intriguing upgrade for our fleet.  <40 lbs for the kit...noticeably better than the metal option, and even lighter than the 3-blade MT.  Getting weight off the nose is a very good thing for most Mooneys.

The Hartzell top prop is heavier than comparable props that it usually replaces, so getting a lighter version might be pretty cool, especially if it is otherwise similar or better.

A friend just put one of the Hartzell composites with a foam core on his experimental and it's a very nice prop.   I'm told it is the preferred technology on some of the racing classes now.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

In 2005 I had the Mooney Factory install a one piece smooth belly on my J in place of the aluminum panels and screws.  The factory log entry stated "Weight and Balance Change Negligible"

KNR, historically one of the most reputable sources of Mooney maintenance information, says that the Factory one piece belly, developed in 1984, can save 3-4 lbs. over the aluminum panels and screws.

"In 1984, Mooney developed a one-piece composite belly panel that when removed, exposes all the equipment from the flap motor to the aileron control links. This panel attaches with approximately 36 cam locks so it came off in a few minutes instead of spending a half an hour removing striped-out screws and pulling panels off.

Once completed, this conversion amounts to a weight savings of 3 to 4 pounds. Mooney never provided this in kit form so this article includes a complete parts list, as you have to purchase each part. Because the F and G models never came with the one-piece belly from the factory, this modification requires a 337 field approval. The J and K models only require a return-to-service logbook entry."

200710 Smooth Out Your Belly (knr-inc.com)

 

That’s good info. Here’s hoping those parts are available for Mooney.  I wonder why it requires a 337. Doesn’t seem like a major alteration but I suppose that’s debatable.

I was referring to the STC’d LASAR kit which was purchased by member who weighed it fresh out of the box at 23lbs. IIRC the Included paperwork stated that the net installed weight was +14lbs.

[201Steve]

59 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Getting weight off the nose is a very good thing for most Mooneys.

Since we are amongst several of the 77J drivers in this thread, relevant to this comment, mine cruises with nose down trim almost to the stops. Are you guys seeing that in cruise? 
 

I doubt a negligible weight of 20-40 lbs would affect that much but… I wondered if 120 lbs in the baggage cOmpartment (silo) would put the trim at the stop… but it still did not run out. 

[ArtVandelay]

Since we are amongst several of the 77J drivers in this thread, relevant to this comment, mine cruises with nose down trim almost to the stops. Are you guys seeing that in cruise? 
 
I doubt a negligible weight of 20-40 lbs would affect that much but… I wondered if 120 lbs in the baggage cOmpartment (silo) would put the trim at the stop… but it still did not run out. 

I don’t think that’s correct and would have it adjusted. This picture of me in cruise, noticed the trim position.

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, 201Steve said:

Since we are amongst several of the 77J drivers in this thread, relevant to this comment, mine cruises with nose down trim almost to the stops. Are you guys seeing that in cruise? 
 

I doubt a negligible weight of 20-40 lbs would affect that much but… I wondered if 120 lbs in the baggage cOmpartment (silo) would put the trim at the stop… but it still did not run out. 

Mine's like that.    I've run out of down trim on fast descents before.     That said, I usually wind up with the trim at takeoff setting after landing, which seems to be the expectation when things are reasonably correct, so I haven't bothered with changing it.   At some point I'll check the rigging, but operationally it's fine other than need a lot of down trim.   It's a little faster that way, too, so I've not been too worried about it.

[dzeleski]

3 hours ago, 201Steve said:

Since we are amongst several of the 77J drivers in this thread, relevant to this comment, mine cruises with nose down trim almost to the stops. Are you guys seeing that in cruise? 
 

I doubt a negligible weight of 20-40 lbs would affect that much but… I wondered if 120 lbs in the baggage cOmpartment (silo) would put the trim at the stop… but it still did not run out. 

Mine is not like that either. It’s probably halfway between takeoff and the down stop at cruise. I just recently had the trim system re rigged as well.

[1980Mooney]

14 hours ago, Shadrach said:

That’s good info. Here’s hoping those parts are available for Mooney.  I wonder why it requires a 337. Doesn’t seem like a major alteration but I suppose that’s debatable.

I was referring to the STC’d LASAR kit which was purchased by member who weighed it fresh out of the box at 23lbs. IIRC the Included paperwork stated that the net installed weight was +14lbs.

Aero Mods made a one piece belly with skid pads molded into the panel. They are comprised of 2 V-shaped ribs longitudinally protruding below the belly. I cant find a picture any more. They probably where also heavy. 

 

[Tx_Aggie]

On 8/10/2023 at 5:06 PM, KSMooniac said:

When talking about the 1-pc belly mods, keep in mind there are (were) different options.  I believe the factory fiberglass version to be pretty light, or negligible increase compared to the aluminum panels + hardware.  I hope to finally complete my conversion this winter, and I plan to weigh everything going in and coming out.

There were some different aftermarket options over the years too, and I believe some of those were noticeably heavier than the factory part.  The notable exception was the Bill Wheat/Dugosh STC for a carbon fiber belly!  I believe that was a little lighter than the factory fiberglass, but you would lose the ability to bury antennas inside it.

I continue to be very happy with my '77 J.  I was originally searching for a modified E or F, but this J appeared locally at the right time, and I was able to stretch (er, my bank was, anyway) to get it.  Over the last 16+ years I've tried to incrementally improve it to suit my desires, reduce drag, improve utility, etc.  At the Caravan staging in Madison last month, Paul Maxwell brought another experienced owner over to mine and asked him to identify what year model it was, and he failed.   "Well, it's not a '77 unless somebody went to the trouble to delete the throttle quadrant..." was my favorite utterance while he was walking around it.  I still need to tweak rigging after recent work, and do some real flight tests to verify ASI accuracy, but I'm measurably faster than I was a few years ago before embarking on big drag reduction steps.  Yesterday at lowish altitude and some bumpy air, I was in the 155-157 KTAS range at 9.7 GPH, if the speedo is correct.  Solo, but full tanks, dog, and a fair amount of stuff in the back.  That used to be 147-150 KTAS.  Looking back after all of these incremental changes, I realize I would have done the same thing if I bought an F!  Oh well.  

Hartzell is developing a 2-blade composite prop with the current Top Prop geometry that might be a very intriguing upgrade for our fleet.  <40 lbs for the kit...noticeably better than the metal option, and even lighter than the 3-blade MT.  Getting weight off the nose is a very good thing for most Mooneys.

In your quest to improve performance have you adjusted your fuel injectors/used Gamis at all?

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Tx_Aggie said:

In your quest to improve performance have you adjusted your fuel injectors/used Gamis at all?

It’s rare that a Lyc IO 360 sees much benefit from GAMIs. Indeed, GAMI would be the first to admit that.

[JayMatt]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:53 PM, EricJ said:

Mine's like that.    I've run out of down trim on fast descents before.     That said, I usually wind up with the trim at takeoff setting after landing, which seems to be the expectation when things are reasonably correct, so I haven't bothered with changing it.   At some point I'll check the rigging, but operationally it's fine other than need a lot of down trim.   It's a little faster that way, too, so I've not been too worried about it.

Mines also like that, full trim down, once I get up to 7500 it can let off a tad and the higher the better it gets. I fly WOT everywhere tho. 

[KSMooniac]

In your quest to improve performance have you adjusted your fuel injectors/used Gamis at all?

Adjusted, sort of. GAMIjectors, no. Most IO-360s don't need them. I swapped a couple around after overhaul and after ensuring no induction leaks and got my GAMI spread down to 0.0-0.1 GPH.

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