Fire Extinguisher underweight

[mooneyflyer]

The fire extinguisher in my Eagle was found underweight this Annual. Can they be recharged or do I need to buy a new expensive one? Thanks in advance

[toto]

They can be recharged. If it’s a halon extinguisher, the recharge is pretty expensive, since halon is unobtanium. 

I really wanted to keep my halon extinguisher, since it still seems to be the most effective option for aircraft cockpit use. So I paid the money to get it recharged - but the recharge from a sliver below the top of the green to the top of the green cost as much as a new extinguisher with the fake stuff

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I have a 20 Lb Halon extinguisher in my garage. It is still in the green. It is my retirement plan.

[A64Pilot]

Whatever you do, don’t throw it away, many companies will buy it.

I had Halon all over the boat but also bought a big Halotron, it’s pretty good has most of the attributes of Halon but is about half as effective per weight.

There are two kinds of Halon of course, one is a gas the other a liquid and may extinguishers have both in them. The ones with a pressure gauge are the liquid, the gas ones you weigh. At least I think that, the gas ones will hold pressure until they are empty of course while the liquid has a propellant gas. There are more than two types but 1211 and 1301 cover most all extinguishers

Halotron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halotron_I

https://amerex-fire.com/products/fire-extinguishers/portable-fire-extinguishers/halotron/halotron-clean-agent/

If the price of Halon has just become too much I’d suggest looking at Halotron, but not dry chemical. Two things happen very quickly if you discharge dry chemical in an enclosed environment, first your blind, then you can’t breathe. Just remember I think it takes 10 lbs of halotron to equal 5 lbs of Halon. I think that’s right anyway.

Halon 1211

https://amerex-fire.com/products/fire-extinguishers/portable-fire-extinguishers/halon-1211/

Halon 1301

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromotrifluoromethane

I have read that a blend of 1211 and 1301 is most effective, but I don’t know that it’s just what I read. I think the Military bottles were 1211.

This place had the best price for Halotron last time I looked, but if if it takes twice as much to be as effective as halon it’s not much cheaper

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/buckeye-2-5-lb-halotron-fire-extinguisher-with-fixed-nozzle-and-dot-vehicle-bracket-rechargeable-untagged-ul-rating-2-b-c/47270251.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhunXqZi1gAMVfqhaBR01kQH7EAQYASABEgIwvfD_BwE

Edited July 30, 2023 by A64Pilot

[cliffy]

Has anyone ever used a halon on an actual fire? 

I have  A very small amount works great for a big gasoline fire in a 10X10 foot pan.

Airport fire department training the extinguisher was about 6 ozs. in size and I used maybe 1/2 of it.  

So I would think that the new stuff even though needing more would work fine. 

[N201MKTurbo]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Whatever you do, don’t throw it away, many companies will buy it.

I had Halon all over the boat but also bought a big Halotron, it’s pretty good has most of the attributes of Halon but is about half as effective per weight.

There are two kinds of Halon of course, one is a gas the other a liquid and may extinguishers have both in them. The ones with a pressure gauge are the liquid, the gas ones you weigh. At least I think that, the gas ones will hold pressure until they are empty of course while the liquid has a propellant gas. There are more than two types but 1211 and 1301 cover most all extinguishers

Halotron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halotron_I

https://amerex-fire.com/products/fire-extinguishers/portable-fire-extinguishers/halotron/halotron-clean-agent/

If the price of Halon has just become too much I’d suggest looking at Halotron, but not dry chemical. Two things happen very quickly if you discharge dry chemical in an enclosed environment, first your blind, then you can’t breathe. Just remember I think it takes 10 lbs of halotron to equal 5 lbs of Halon. I think that’s right anyway.

Halon 1211

https://amerex-fire.com/products/fire-extinguishers/portable-fire-extinguishers/halon-1211/

Halon 1301

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromotrifluoromethane

I have read that a blend of 1211 and 1301 is most effective, but I don’t know that it’s just what I read. I think the Military bottles were 1211.

This place had the best price for Halotron last time I looked, but if if it takes twice as much to be as effective as halon it’s not much cheaper

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/buckeye-2-5-lb-halotron-fire-extinguisher-with-fixed-nozzle-and-dot-vehicle-bracket-rechargeable-untagged-ul-rating-2-b-c/47270251.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhunXqZi1gAMVfqhaBR01kQH7EAQYASABEgIwvfD_BwE

My extinguisher is full of 1211.

About 15 years ago, a friend of mine said his company was changing out all the Halon extinguishers with the new ones. They were going to scrap them all, so he grabbed a few and gave me one.

[mooneyflyer]

11 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Whatever you do, don’t throw it away, many companies will buy it.

I had Halon all over the boat but also bought a big Halotron, it’s pretty good has most of the attributes of Halon but is about half as effective per weight.

There are two kinds of Halon of course, one is a gas the other a liquid and may extinguishers have both in them. The ones with a pressure gauge are the liquid, the gas ones you weigh. At least I think that, the gas ones will hold pressure until they are empty of course while the liquid has a propellant gas. There are more than two types but 1211 and 1301 cover most all extinguishers

Halotron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halotron_I

https://amerex-fire.com/products/fire-extinguishers/portable-fire-extinguishers/halotron/halotron-clean-agent/

If the price of Halon has just become too much I’d suggest looking at Halotron, but not dry chemical. Two things happen very quickly if you discharge dry chemical in an enclosed environment, first your blind, then you can’t breathe. Just remember I think it takes 10 lbs of halotron to equal 5 lbs of Halon. I think that’s right anyway.

Halon 1211

https://amerex-fire.com/products/fire-extinguishers/portable-fire-extinguishers/halon-1211/

Halon 1301

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromotrifluoromethane

I have read that a blend of 1211 and 1301 is most effective, but I don’t know that it’s just what I read. I think the Military bottles were 1211.

This place had the best price for Halotron last time I looked, but if if it takes twice as much to be as effective as halon it’s not much cheaper

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/buckeye-2-5-lb-halotron-fire-extinguisher-with-fixed-nozzle-and-dot-vehicle-bracket-rechargeable-untagged-ul-rating-2-b-c/47270251.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhunXqZi1gAMVfqhaBR01kQH7EAQYASABEgIwvfD_BwE

Thank you. Who might I contact to sell my existing extinguisher?

[Pinecone]

Any fire extinguisher dealer/service company.  If they don't want to purchase, they can point you to someone who will.

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, mooneyflyer said:

Thank you. Who might I contact to sell my existing extinguisher?

If that doesn’t work a Google search will. There are many companies the you mail it to them and they send you a check.

Many CFC’s like the old fashioned refrigerants etc can no longer be manufactured in the first world countries, but as there is no good way to get rid of it, it’s allowed to be recycled. Of course this means as time goes by there is less and less of it so of course the price keeps increasing, from supply / demand.

I brought back not a lot but several cans of R-23 with me from Korea as it’s allowed to be manufactured there, or was in 2000 anyway, and believe it or not but China isn’t or wasn’t considered to be a first world country so they are / were allowed to manufacture and use CFC’s

Little Google works says developed countries banned it in 96 and “developing” countries like China in 2010. But it seems China is still manufacturing and using CFC’s because in most cases it works better and is less expensive than alternatives.

Just know Halon is still legal, those that decry it’s not are incorrect at least in the US anyway, but I think in many parts of the world it is not legal.

In Germany the Germans came and seized all of our big green Halon flightline fire extinguishers just before we went to Bosnia in I guess 95? I always wondered what they did with them as they must have been I guess 150 lbs each.

I talked to the one on charge that was seizing them, who was very proud because he was protecting the environment. I asked him if he thought the aircraft burning up with 376 gls of jet fuel and all the poisons given off from the composites would be better for the environment than putting the fire out with a little Halon. You have to love Germans as a group they are very logical, anyway you could see he was thinking about that and wasn’t as proud as he was to start with, because he could see the logic in putting the fire out.

[0TreeLemur]

8 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

In Germany the Germans came and seized all of our big green Halon flightline fire extinguishers just before we went to Bosnia in I guess 95? I always wondered what they did with them as they must have been I guess 150 lbs each.

I talked to the one on charge that was seizing them, who was very proud because he was protecting the environment. I asked him if he thought the aircraft burning up with 376 gls of jet fuel and all the poisons given off from the composites would be better for the environment than putting the fire out with a little Halon. You have to love Germans as a group they are very logical, anyway you could see he was thinking about that and wasn’t as proud as he was to start with, because he could see the logic in putting the fire out.

Ah yes.  Teutonic logic.  While stranded on a streambank in the wilds of Panama by a non-starting French Allouette helicopter, my research team and I were forced to ponder staying yet another night in camp with two additional people who had no food or gear.  The pilot was a logical German fellow who figured out that the starter/generator contactor had failed and would not switch to generator mode on start-up.   After that he tried for hours to contact commercial carriers passing overhead in/out of PTY to no avail.  I guess because the helicopter was on the ground and the antenna was on the belly it just wouldn't break squelch on the airliners.

So, as the late afternoon sky started to darken, I needed to start a fire to boil water for food.  All our firestarting stuff was damp from humidity and the jungle floor wet from rain.  I took a small cup to the pilot and asked for some fuel to start a fire.   He considered my request for about 10 seconds and said "I don't want to do that."  I considered his denial for about 10 seconds and replied "Do you want to eat?".

"I'll get  you the fuel."

[A64Pilot]

I lived on the economy in Germany, that means I rented a house in a German town instead of staying on post, so of course my Neighbors were German.

I would crank the Z28 and let it idle to warm up for a few minutes before we drove off. Maybe the second time I was doing that the doorbell rang. A neighbor told me that I shouldn’t do that, that I was polluting the environment. I explained to him that US cars had catalytic convertors like the German cars do, but what was different with US cars was that they were electrically heated, and that until the Cat got up to operating temp the car polluted much more than when the convertor was hot enough to work, so that by idling the car I was waiting for the Cat to light off before driving away, because idling I was consuming very little fuel and therefore polluting only a little, but if I drove off with a cold Cat that I would be polluting a lot.

The German cars would not get enough heat into the Cat for it to light off idling and that’s why US cars added the electric heat, and that by turning their cars off they may be increasing the pollution if the Cat cooled off because it didn’t work until it got hot again.

He thought about it, understood what I was saying and never bothered me again, and I’m sure this was explained to the others because no one ever brought it up.

Now you need to think, these same people that would turn their cars off at red lights to not pollute, would jump on the Autobahn and burn fuel like it was free, and at that time anyway they still sold leaded fuel at every gas station.

The best thing though was the local power plant, it was Nuclear, but the neighbors said no it’s a coal plant. Well there was a large pile of coal, but it had trees growing in it and no coal was ever delivered and the coal pile was never disturbed, again small trees growing in the railroad tracks that led to the plant, but they would proudly proclaim that their plant was not Nuclear   It was a VFR check point for us, because you could see those cooling towers forever.

As a group though I really did like them, they were way more honest than most Americans and as I say if they were shown the logic of something they would change their position.

Except for their love of automobiles they were very green, recycled everything, even captured the rain water from their roofs to water their yards and plants

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

Funny did a search, I guess they eventually did find out that it was a nuke plant

https://wiseinternational.org/nuclear-monitor/493-494/explosion-german-fuel-plant-kept-secret-11-years

[M20F]

20 hours ago, cliffy said:

Has anyone ever used a halon on an actual fire? 

No but I did experience one in our companies main server room (after the fact) that decided to go off one weekend (why do these things always happen at 0200 on a weekend). 

[EricJ]

21 hours ago, cliffy said:

Has anyone ever used a halon on an actual fire? 

I have  A very small amount works great for a big gasoline fire in a 10X10 foot pan.

Airport fire department training the extinguisher was about 6 ozs. in size and I used maybe 1/2 of it.  

So I would think that the new stuff even though needing more would work fine. 

Halon used to be popular with the auto racing community, particularly if you operated with a sanctioning body or rule set that required fire suppression.   A friend had a 240Z that during one of its early design iterations would catch fire periodically, sometimes spectacularly.    He had Halon fire suppression and quickly learned that you have to wait until you're stopped to activate it or it all just gets carried away in the slipstream and does little to nothing to put the fire out.   Most aviation applications are different and use high pressure bottles where part of the suppression strategy is the force of the bottle blowing the fire out.   If the system isn't designed or used specifically for the application, it may be ineffective, regardless what the chemistry is.

I had a Halon system in one of my race cars, which had two separate circuits with a ten pound bottle in each.    It never got used and I salvaged all of it when that car was destroyed in a track accident.   That system sat in my garage for years and I finally donated it to the A&P school that I went to so they could do a demonstration with it or something.    I've no idea whether they ever did anything with it. 

[Vance Harral]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Funny did a search, I guess they eventually did find out that it was a nuke plant

You'd think the fact that the name of the company was Nukem mighta given it away? 

[A64Pilot]

I saw that, but think that can’t really be correct

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Many CFC’s like the old fashioned refrigerants etc can no longer be manufactured in the first world countries, but as there is no good way to get rid of it, it’s allowed to be recycled. Of course this means as time goes by there is less and less of it so of course the price keeps increasing, from supply / demand

 

The US never banned production.  They only banned interstate transport of them.

About the time of the ban, AZ was trying to get someone to come and build a plant to make R-12 (cars) and R-22 (structures) in the state to service all the ACs in the state.

 

[Pinecone]

18 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I lived on the economy in Germany, that means I rented a house in a German town instead of staying on post, so of course my Neighbors were German.

I would crank the Z28 and let it idle to warm up for a few minutes before we drove off. Maybe the second time I was doing that the doorbell rang. A neighbor told me that I shouldn’t do that, that I was polluting the environment. I explained to him that US cars had catalytic convertors like the German cars do, but what was different with US cars was that they were electrically heated, and that until the Cat got up to operating temp the car polluted much more than when the convertor was hot enough to work, so that by idling the car I was waiting for the Cat to light off before driving away, because idling I was consuming very little fuel and therefore polluting only a little, but if I drove off with a cold Cat that I would be polluting a lot.

The German cars would not get enough heat into the Cat for it to light off idling and that’s why US cars added the electric heat, and that by turning their cars off they may be increasing the pollution if the Cat cooled off because it didn’t work until it got hot again.

I have never heard of a car with electrically heated cats.

US cars have the cat (one or first) closer to the engine than Euro cars for getting the cat heated up quicker.  This is about the only difference from my US Spec 2002 M3 and a Euro Spec 2002 M3.  The change in cat position costs the US engine about 5 HP.

 

Euro emissions standards, as least in the 2000s, did not have a cold start requirement.

BTW, the car heats up a lot slower at idle than when actually running.

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

I have never heard of a car with electrically heated cats.

US cars have the cat (one or first) closer to the engine than Euro cars for getting the cat heated up quicker.  This is about the only difference from my US Spec 2002 M3 and a Euro Spec 2002 M3.  The change in cat position costs the US engine about 5 HP.

 

Euro emissions standards, as least in the 2000s, did not have a cold start requirement.

BTW, the car heats up a lot slower at idle than when actually running.

I think they aren’t uncommon and have been around for quite sometime, since 96 it seems

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/960349/

Also even in Diesels https://dieselnet.com/news/2020/03emitec.php

I know my Z28 didn’t have electric cats, but the neighbor didn’t  yeah I know I shouldn’t have but I did.

I know US Cats were closer to heat up faster and I thought due to that that I would burn mine out, but it never did and I ran that car hard, eventually cooking the rear end and transmission.

I wasn’t worried about pollution but wanted to put the Wife and Baby in a warm not cold car.

Pollution wise the Z28 was much cleaner with unleaded fuel and Catalytic convertor than the old Mercedes I had that I don’t think had any real pollution controls and burned leaded gas, so I didn’t feel guilty. I believe in fact that at the time that the new US cars were much cleaner than new Euro spec cars and I think that’s true even today. One big reason you don’t see the Euro spec Diesels in the US is because they can’t pass emissions. Too bad because I’ve heard they are good cars, getting great mileage etc.

But maybe not because I’ve not kept up with things, I believe in truth that US Auto’s have not gotten as good as they could have in recent years with the castration of CAFE standards etc. So maybe Euro cars have left us behind

Edited July 31, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Pinecone]

No, Euro diesels are not being sold in the US because people were not buying them.  Rising fuel prices and the switch to hybrids have reduced the market.  

There was the issue with VW gaming the EPA tests.