Garmin panel upgrade to 78J

[MichMooney201]

Time to spend some more money again as the plane went into the Lafayette Avionics today to get some new toys.  Dual GI275's, GFC500, GNX375, GNC255A, GTR225 and a GMA345 audio panel.  $50K ish upgrade that I anticipate will work fantastic.  Major driver for this plane is that it flies cross country almost 100% of its missions and I am still salty about the $6K I spent at autopilots central that fixed my Century IIB for maybe 5 months  before it broke again a few years back.  After talking with a few folks I knew the autopilot upgrade was probably the greatest upgrade with the largest impact on flying considering how I fly.  The GFC500 seems to offer the best integration with a few other Garmin upgrades to tie everything together between the EI CGR's and running Fore Flight.  I considered the STEC but I needed new radios too as 1 of my Collins radios has next to no range and 1 Collins nav is inop.  Because I use Fore Flight almost exclusively I couldn't justify a 650 or 750 so the GNX375 fit the bill for GPS and I've already sold my Stratus ESG/2S.  So there is my rationale for upgrading to a Garmin suite and why i chose what I did, and I wasn't willing to drop $100K on my $100K value airplane.  With all that in mind, I would love to read some comments about what I maybe missed or what I should really pay attention too.  This was a budgeted purchase so the G3X was not an option, so we can overlook that discussion please.

 

There is fantastic knowledge throughout this group so I really appreciate the sharing of it...I wish I had time to scour this website for days to glean all of it.  Many thanks in advance for the upcoming comments; or apologies if I start another virtual fistfight of opinions.  You guys are great though!!

[KSMooniac]

Sounds like a perfectly rational decision and upgrade path to me.  Having a 10" G3X or G500 doesn't make your plane any faster, safer, or more efficient over a pair of G5's.  Ditto for a GTN TXi box.  I would love a big PFD someday, but I'm still rockin' along with steam gauges and a pair of GNS WAAS GPS/nav/coms and STEC-30.  It works just fine.    

My only question would be if you have an engine monitor or not.  I consider that more important than any of the other things in your upgrade list.  I installed an EDM-900 in 2015 and heartily endorse it.  I like it so much, I will keep it if/when I upgrade to a PFD as I do not like G's or D's engine monitoring compared to JPI.  

[Fly Boomer]

13 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I like it so much, I will keep it if/when I upgrade to a PFD as I do not like G's or D's engine monitoring compared to JPI.  

Why?  I'm still limping along with an EDM-700.

[PT20J]

GI 275s have less backup battery time than G5s. That drove me to a 10” G3X with G5 backup and you get a nice split screen PFD/MFD display. I’d check the price delta. 

[201Steve]

You’ll be all digital and that’s a big deal. I did G5’s, 650xi, and gfc500. They operate simpatico and have any practical feature of the system I’m aware of. A game changer for the same mission profile, cross country flying. Not sure what limitations the 375 gps will present over a full nav/com/gps but I assume it’s minimal in most applications. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Why?  I'm still limping along with an EDM-700.

I just went from an EDM 800 to a 830, it’s a very affordable upgrade to get a much better and more usable screen.  All the old wiring and plugs are compatible, you just pull out the 700 and put in the 730, connect the plugs in the back and configure,  my shop didn’t even charge any install since they were in my panel anyway doing other stuff and I took on the configuration challenge myself. 
 

You get to see all of your CHT/EGTs and five other values simultaneously.   Plus larger color screen.   I think the screen only is 1500 new, although in my case my avionics guy had a used one he sold me for 750.  

[ArtVandelay]

GI 275s have less backup battery time than G5s. That drove me to a 10” G3X with G5 backup and you get a nice split screen PFD/MFD display. I’d check the price delta. 

It’s 6 AMUs in hardware, I’d expect the installation to be a little more.

[Pinecone]

I don't know, in the airplanes I fly, there are Garmin 400, 430, 650, G-1000, and my plane with a 650Xi.

I find the 650s very nice, with a lot of capabilities over the 4xx navs.  And the touch screen is very nice.  I keep poking the screens on the other airplanes.

 

[MichMooney201]

13 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

Sounds like a perfectly rational decision and upgrade path to me.  Having a 10" G3X or G500 doesn't make your plane any faster, safer, or more efficient over a pair of G5's.  Ditto for a GTN TXi box.  I would love a big PFD someday, but I'm still rockin' along with steam gauges and a pair of GNS WAAS GPS/nav/coms and STEC-30.  It works just fine.    

My only question would be if you have an engine monitor or not.  I consider that more important than any of the other things in your upgrade list.  I installed an EDM-900 in 2015 and heartily endorse it.  I like it so much, I will keep it if/when I upgrade to a PFD as I do not like G's or D's engine monitoring compared to JPI.  

I do have an engine monitor as there is a pair of Electronics International CGR-30's in the panel which was a great upgrade in itself.  I too would love a big PFD and am holding out to buy an Ovation or Acclaim when I turn independently wealthy.  Until then I am going to "limp" along at 150kts and 9.5 gph in this upgraded J.

[MichMooney201]

11 hours ago, PT20J said:

GI 275s have less backup battery time than G5s. That drove me to a 10” G3X with G5 backup and you get a nice split screen PFD/MFD display. I’d check the price delta. 

You are right on that one...1 hr for the GI 275 compared to 4 hours for the G5 for battery time.  G3X requires a backup instrument like the G5 so now the math gets expensive fast.  $2200 more for dual GI275's over dual G5's with no difference in installation costs. A G3X plus the backup G5 is close to $10K more over dual GI275's installed.  The 275's have numerous functional benefits over the G5 and are touchscreen units.  I didn't stop to consider backup time of 1hr vs 4hr but I think if I were to lose an alternator in flight I would be on the ground before the hour was up, and with having duals I could shut one down immediately on loss of alternator and have a 2hr ish backup if required.  Thanks for pointing this out as I am now going to devise a very specific approach to a loss of alternator casualty in addition to considering a dual alternator setup or 2nd onboard battery.  I also run a Surefly so electrical security airborne is getting to be very important.

[MIm20c]

Parts list looks good to me. Personally I’d spend the extra for a new left panel during the upgrade. Moving instruments up, centering them, and grouping things (switches etc) goes a long way towards a nice looking finished project. 

[Fly Boomer]

10 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I just went from an EDM 800 to a 830, it’s a very affordable upgrade to get a much better and more usable screen.  All the old wiring and plugs are compatible, you just pull out the 700 and put in the 730, connect the plugs in the back and configure,  my shop didn’t even charge any install since they were in my panel anyway doing other stuff and I took on the configuration challenge myself. 
 

You get to see all of your CHT/EGTs and five other values simultaneously.   Plus larger color screen.   I think the screen only is 1500 new, although in my case my avionics guy had a used one he sold me for 750.  

Those are great reasons to do it, but I was trying to understand why @KSMooniac does "not like G's or D's engine monitoring compared to JPI".  I'm also influenced by Don Kaye's comment about the larger screen characters.

[rbp]

if you're getting a G3X and you're debating Garmin EIS versus another one, I would recommend the Garmin for the simple reason that the log files on the G3X SD card will integrate the engine instrumentation with all the G3X (and GFC500) data, as you can see here

[KSMooniac]

I much prefer looking at my EDM-900 display, and think it is the perfect form-factor to install on the pilot side of pretty much any Mooney.  The case can be made it is the most important instrument and should be monitored very regularly since we only have one engine.  The display is crisp and everything needed is on a single screen.  I still like the leaning function (set to LOP for me) although others may have copied that by now.  EI's MVP is a nice unit functionally, but I'm sorry, it is just ugly to look at!  Like a 1980's arcade game in resolution/font/design.  That's my personal opinion of course.  It's also too big to put on the left side.  JPI's EDM-930 is far prettier, but also too big for a Mooney left side installation.

At least we have options!  Not everyone shares my opinion and I'm not selling any of these units so I don't need to press the issue.  If/when I go for a PFD, I will evaluate the current state of the big ones and look at the integrated engine monitoring again and see if I like it well enough to ditch the -900.  Garmin's data syncing is neat, but frankly I have no use for it that I can imagine.  A flight instructor or flight test organization might make use of it regularly.  I think there are other apps that could be combined with JPI logged data if someone were diligent, but I have no need for it.

To @MichMooney201, I'm glad you've got something modern already... the main thing is to have a full-function monitor to help with troubleshooting/diagnosing and making better decisions in the air, and in the shop.  Hopefully you know how to interpret everything it can tell you.  If not, the advanced pilots online seminar is a very wise choice for everyone.

[rbp]

1 hour ago, Evan said:

What software is that above?

Lots of different software does this, but this particular screen comes from the Garmin “IflyGarmin” website 

[rbp]

Here are some more cool  G3X EIS graphs that I posted 

 

[MichMooney201]

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

I much prefer looking at my EDM-900 display, and think it is the perfect form-factor to install on the pilot side of pretty much any Mooney.  The case can be made it is the most important instrument and should be monitored very regularly since we only have one engine.  The display is crisp and everything needed is on a single screen.  I still like the leaning function (set to LOP for me) although others may have copied that by now.  EI's MVP is a nice unit functionally, but I'm sorry, it is just ugly to look at!  Like a 1980's arcade game in resolution/font/design.  That's my personal opinion of course.  It's also too big to put on the left side.  JPI's EDM-930 is far prettier, but also too big for a Mooney left side installation.

At least we have options!  Not everyone shares my opinion and I'm not selling any of these units so I don't need to press the issue.  If/when I go for a PFD, I will evaluate the current state of the big ones and look at the integrated engine monitoring again and see if I like it well enough to ditch the -900.  Garmin's data syncing is neat, but frankly I have no use for it that I can imagine.  A flight instructor or flight test organization might make use of it regularly.  I think there are other apps that could be combined with JPI logged data if someone were diligent, but I have no need for it.

To @MichMooney201, I'm glad you've got something modern already... the main thing is to have a full-function monitor to help with troubleshooting/diagnosing and making better decisions in the air, and in the shop.  Hopefully you know how to interpret everything it can tell you.  If not, the advanced pilots online seminar is a very wise choice for everyone.

So I had to chuckle reading your comment about the 80's video game display...one of the main reason's I chose the EI CGR-30 combo gauges are how modern and crisp the display is, and to be very frank the reason why I chose the Electronics International setup over the JPI.  I would go one step further to say the tech and sales support from EI is nothing short of phenomenal.  In my opinion the CGR-30 combo gauge far exceeded competitive offerings for very similar investment costs.  The set up took out all the gauges across the top of the panel, fuel, oil, etc; took out the MP and Tach from the far right of the panel and has left open some serious real estate in the panel for all the new stuff going in and then some.  I will be posting pics as soon as this whole thing is finished up.

[rbp]

This is the EIS strip on the G3X  it’s hi-res — should be able to zoom in

 

[KSMooniac]

I've read of poor customer and tech support from JPI, but in my case with two interactions, they've been outstanding.  First time was to fix an EDM-700 display (missing segments) that was under warranty, even though I was not the original purchaser or the shop.  I sent it to them and they quick-turned it without any friction.  Second time was to update the firm ware on my EDM-900 and again, they were fantastic.  I know EI has been routinely praised for customer support, and I've noticed one or more of their reps active on the forums...that is a great thing to do.  

I too cleaned up my panel and removed the OEM strip gauges and the instruments on the far right side.  Did you put your CGR's on the left side, or right?  

[rbp]

and this is the split-screen detail view. 
 

 

 

[KSMooniac]

The G3X is *beautiful* but I would not be willing to give up the full-time all EGT/CHT view in normalized mode with fine resolution.  That is especially useful for monitoring & troubleshooting, long before any alarm might be triggered.  I've caught a failing spark plug mid-flight just by watching that display (my old EDM-700).  Seeing a single EGT bar like that pic is just a little bit better than meaningless, unfortunately.   Can you display more engine data on that left side?  Is it pilot/owner configurable?

EDIT:  your 2nd pic showed up while composing the reply above this line!  can you split-screen ALL engine data at the same time?  Or display all engine data in conjunction with PFD & MFD on a single 10" screen?

[ArtVandelay]

and this is the split-screen detail view. 
 
 
 

JPI shows everything, above only a small subset what’s available.

[MichMooney201]

45 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I've read of poor customer and tech support from JPI, but in my case with two interactions, they've been outstanding.  First time was to fix an EDM-700 display (missing segments) that was under warranty, even though I was not the original purchaser or the shop.  I sent it to them and they quick-turned it without any friction.  Second time was to update the firm ware on my EDM-900 and again, they were fantastic.  I know EI has been routinely praised for customer support, and I've noticed one or more of their reps active on the forums...that is a great thing to do.  

I too cleaned up my panel and removed the OEM strip gauges and the instruments on the far right side.  Did you put your CGR's on the left side, or right?  

4th spot over from the left on the left panel...where the VOR's used to live.

[rbp]

38 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

JPI shows everything, above only a small subset what’s available.

You can configure the display to your liking. In the split scree mode, its only showing the things that are not already in the EIS strip. 

The EIS strip can be on the left or on the right side of the display. The MFD split can be either on the left or the right. I happen to have it set up with the EIS trip on the left and the split on the right  if they were both configured to be on the same side, you would see all the gauges together  

This is the display on the MFD

 

 

[rbp]

55 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Seeing a single EGT bar like that pic is just a little bit better than meaningless

Depends on your plane. Mine being turbocharged, TIT and fuel flow are primary. 
 

with the four-cylinder version you can show a bar graph of all four cylinders in the EIS strip. Not for 6