Should Tesla buy Mooney?

[Kmac]

1 minute ago, chriscalandro said:

I just drove my model Y across the country and it was a terrible experience I’d never want to share with my airplane. 

I'd like to know what caused the experience to be so bad.

 

My MY has over 40k miles on it.

 

My trip to Florida is 1,150 miles and I've done it 4 times... My trips have increased from 18 hours to 20 hours...

My trip to NC is 650 miles and I've done it 6 times...  My trips have increased from 10 hours to 11 hours...

 

What the heck happened?!?!

 

[cwaters]

37 minutes ago, N9656G said:

I’m discussing a 20 owner part 91 operated jet share type model. Similar to a NetJets operating under part 91 but flying to part 135 standards. 

This is a really interesting use case. So you would create a flight club of sorts where you are the only pilot and 20 people own the plane? 

with that many people how do you handle not wandering into the 135 territory ? (I know nothing of all this) 

Also with that many people how would you think to handle the scheduling ? Extra pilots ... how would insurance look at that ? 

[A64Pilot]

27 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

EV's are efficient but you like every EV owner exaggerates the efficiency.  Back on page 2 you said showed your actual charging records and said "If anyone is curious, this screenshot is every single charge the car has ever had and a total actual cost, so it’s cost us $180 in electricity to drive close to 4800 miles.". 

• You said you pay $0.14/KWH. 
• $180/0.14 = 1,286 KWH
• 1,286 KWH/4,800 miles = 268 WH/mile  (not 200 WH like you state above)
• That is 3.73 miles per KWH .... Not 5 miles like you state above.

You are claiming efficiencies 34% greater that actual.  When you look at the power your charger is actually consuming it is higher than you see going from the battery to the motor.  There are losses somewhere - in the charger, line losses, running accessories on the car, whatever  - Bottom line you are actually using more electricity than you want everyone to believe.

Don't get me wrong - EV's are efficient.  But please use realistic numbers.  This is classic over promise under deliver which leaves a bad impression on everyone. - yes I know that is how the entire PC industry, information age and Elon Musk grew their businesses but these are airplanes that will fall out of the sky on over promises

 

The Watt hour per mile bounces around, just like gas car milage does, last I looked the drive was 200WH per mile, but that’s vehicle usage, which does not include the charging inefficiency.

The numbers your running does include those inefficiencies, which I would agree is a more realistic way to look at it, first include the charger, and secondly the total average consumption.

But anyway you cut it, it did in fact cost $180 to drive roughly 4,800 miles

Using todays $5 a gl for premium, and 25 mpg, to drive the Miata 4,800 miles would cost $960

Those numbers are I believe inarguable

[EricJ]

Yeah, the flight schools are packed, and it seems like a large fraction of people under 25 know how to operate a drone.

Young people aren't lacking inspiration, even for aviation, and there are tons of examples of that everywhere.   The barriers to entry tend to be financial, like they are for any education these days.   It's a very, very broken system, something largely unique to the US.  

A number of young friends have gone through the contemporary flight school ladder, and one is still in the early parts of it.  The large numbers that are still highly inspired to fly generally only have two options:   the military (a much more exclusive option than it used to be), or the flight school path to a career.  While the flight school students will be saddled with a lot of debt when they're done, at the moment their prospects for sufficient employment to service it plus make a living are reasonably good.  

I don't see any lack of inspiriation toward aviation, just a barrier that's too high.  People have a much harder time just getting a general education these days, an expensive add-on like aviation is not even on the radar.

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, cwaters said:

This is a really interesting use case. So you would create a flight club of sorts where you are the only pilot and 20 people own the plane? 

with that many people how do you handle not wandering into the 135 territory ? (I know nothing of all this) 

Also with that many people how would you think to handle the scheduling ? Extra pilots ... how would insurance look at that ? 

Actually a lot of turbo props and jets are owned this way. As long as each passenger ( at least one who has common purpose) is an owner it’s 91 the pilot is paid from the same entity that owns the plane and is an employee. 

[cwaters]

1 minute ago, RobertGary1 said:

Actually a lot of turbo props and jets are owned this way. As long as each passenger ( at least one who has common purpose) is an owner it’s 91 the pilot is paid from the same entity that owns the plane and is an employee. 

that is interesting, thank you for expanding my curiosity to learn more about this 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

To any and all that insist electric vehicles are not subsidized, I submit Exhibit A:

This just arrived with my electric bill.  Of course, there are also subsidies via road taxes contained in the price of gasoline and diesel fuel, tax breaks for EV factories, etc., and, perhaps the biggest subsidy is the value of cheap money.  This one is not forced by government, at least, but the fact that Tesla stock is valued higher than GM and Ford, which actually have much higher sales.

To those debating "possible, future aircraft configurations", look at what exists today.  Pipistrel makes an electric aircraft.  Its battery will power its motor at full power for 12 whole minutes!  Or 24 minutes at 50% power.  BFD!  Is that even legal to takeoff?!?  It will take a 20-fold improvement of energy density in batteries to give us equivalent performance to conventional aircraft, and that is if internal combustion engine technology stays the same.  Given the history of technological development, it will take about 40 years for this improvement to be available for the average consumer.  (The real suckers are those investing billions in electric aircraft factories.  Is 40 years to begin payback realistic? I suppose the Bigger Fool Theory might apply.)

Ergo, the reality is that the last answer on the poll is correct for most people here, regardless of your desires!

[N9656G]

17 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Actually a lot of turbo props and jets are owned this way. As long as each passenger ( at least one who has common purpose) is an owner it’s 91 the pilot is paid from the same entity that owns the plane and is an employee. 

Bingo! 

[chriscalandro]

43 minutes ago, Kmac said:

I'd like to know what caused the experience to be so bad.

 

My MY has over 40k miles on it.

 

My trip to Florida is 1,150 miles and I've done it 4 times... My trips have increased from 18 hours to 20 hours...

My trip to NC is 650 miles and I've done it 6 times...  My trips have increased from 10 hours to 11 hours...

 

What the heck happened?!?!

 

What happened did I had to stop every 2.5 hours, 200miles or so, sometimes less, for at least a half hour. 
 

From Miami to LA 8-9 hrs of charging was added to the trip. 
 

never again. 

[haymak3r]

The way I understand the current logic, for our long range model 3, as long as I get 250wh/mi, then my range is accurate. if I have 300 miles of range, I am getting that amount of range. More wh/mi, and I will not get that range. This has held true for a few years now. 200 is hard to get in the winter for us. but during the spring/summer/fall I can cruise down the highway at around 180wh/mi.

 

[haymak3r]

5 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

What happened did I had to stop every 2.5 hours, 200miles or so, sometimes less, for at least a half hour. 
 

From Miami to LA 8-9 hrs of charging was added to the trip. 
 

never again. 

how fast were you driving?

[A64Pilot]

33 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

To any and all that insist electric vehicles are not subsidized, I submit Exhibit A:

This just arrived with my electric bill.  Of course, there are also subsidies via road taxes contained in the price of gasoline and diesel fuel, tax breaks for EV factories, etc., and, perhaps the biggest subsidy is the value of cheap money.  This one is not forced by government, at least, but the fact that Tesla stock is valued higher than GM and Ford, which actually have much higher sales.

To those debating "possible, future aircraft configurations", look at what exists today.  Pipistrel makes an electric aircraft.  Its battery will power its motor at full power for 12 whole minutes!  Or 24 minutes at 50% power.  BFD!  Is that even legal to takeoff?!?  It will take a 20-fold improvement of energy density in batteries to give us equivalent performance to conventional aircraft, and that is if internal combustion engine technology stays the same.  Given the history of technological development, it will take about 40 years for this improvement to be available for the average consumer.  (The real suckers are those investing billions in electric aircraft factories.  Is 40 years to begin payback realistic? I suppose the Bigger Fool Theory might apply.)

Ergo, the reality is that the last answer on the poll is correct for most people here, regardless of your desires!

Unfortunately that ad you got is incorrect, The subsidies only cover up to the first x number of cars and Tesla is well beyond that, While the installation of the wall charger is probably correct, I installed mine and didn’t bother.

However the current administration is trying to pass HUGE subsidies for EV’S really BIG ones if Union made, which Tesla is not.

Currently there is zero tax incentive on a Tesla, and many States impose a road use tax higher on EV’s than gas cars, some impose none

Personally I am against incentives, if it’s a superior product it will stand on its on, if not, then I don’t want it anyway, do I?

 

[aviatoreb]

I struggled with what to buy in April 2020 when my then car - my Subaru WRX STI decided it was time - it was a 2004 I had owned since new and maintained well but it only had 100k on it since my commute to work is 1.5 miles and I ride it on my bike a lot in the summer.  In fact, probably 75-80% of the miles I put are winter - driving to work and also driving to XC ski locations.  Most of my longer range "driving" is either with family in a different car - or if solo - by my hotrod - the Mooney.

So I had strong thoughts of going electric at that time, but I decided not this one...  In the end of the day - not buying much gas honestly on an annual basis, I decided it wasn't worth the trouble of thinking of gas savings and instead just the utility.  I didn't see a lot of good snow-worthy small cars like the Subaru Crosstrek I got.  Yes there was a hybrid cross trek which is a great concept but it is even still less well performing than the gas version.  Something like 10sec 0-6 vs 7.5, so something really notable.  Although now it is hybrid and plug in chargeable which is a great concept solving the range thing.  When the electric is out performing the gas - that's when I will consider the hybrid cross trek.  

[A64Pilot]

26 minutes ago, haymak3r said:

The way I understand the current logic, for our long range model 3, as long as I get 250wh/mi, then my range is accurate. if I have 300 miles of range, I am getting that amount of range. More wh/mi, and I will not get that range. This has held true for a few years now. 200 is hard to get in the winter for us. but during the spring/summer/fall I can cruise down the highway at around 180wh/mi.

 

The $180 per 4K miles included ALL electricity I bought from the Electric company used in the car, to include charger losses.

The reported consumption we get from the car is real, but does NOT include charger losses, but as you pay for charger losses in planning expenses they should be taken into account.

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[haymak3r]

11 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

The $180 per 4K miles included ALL electricity I bought from the Electric company used in the car, to include charger losses.

The reported consumption we get from the car is real, but does NOT include charger losses, but as you pay for charger losses in planning expenses they should be taken into account.

exactly. also just normal discharge while in the cold is a small issue. The more weight, items you have on can influence that wh/mi. $180 for 4k is pretty good right? We try not to go to superchargers unless we have to. But having solar also helps keep the cost down for us. 

[Mooney217RN]

There is little to no chance that in our lifetimes we will see an all electric Mooney, airline transport or fully functional Part 91 aircraft that can seat 4 and have any reasonable range.  LSA, probably.

Not only do we have the FAA to contend with, who approve virtually nothing without a lifetime of hassles, headaches and regulatory burdens, but pound for pound, dollar for dollar, nothing beats petroleum.  It's also functional and practical for aircraft use, which batteries are not.

 

[chriscalandro]

30 minutes ago, haymak3r said:

how fast were you driving?

Usually around 70. In this case it didn’t really matter as the range gained or lost from going slower or faster didn’t get you to the next supercharger. Going the max autopilot speed of 80 really only lost maybe 20 miles of range between stops and only accounted for maybe a minute or 2 of additional supercharger time. 
 

I have a performance Y

 

a and positive note for the trip is with all the autopilot miles I got into FSD beta, which is FAAAARRRR from good or close to being a thing. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by chriscalandro

[A64Pilot]

EV’s are not good cold wx cars, a cold battery is a poor power producer, so power from the battery has to be used to heat the thing for it to work in cold weather, Tesla calls this “preconditioning” But it increases consumption and decreases range

They are not in my option good cars for people who live in most apartments or have to park on the street,because they can’t charge at home.

However as I live in Central Fl and have a garage, those considerations don’t apply to me, but an EV isn’t for everyone.

I assume most would not be good snow cars because even though they are called SUV’s and may be all wheel drive most of the new electric SUV’s only have about 5” ground clearance?

I don’t think our Tesla would be good for trips, that's what the Mooney is for, but if I had to do a car trip, I’d rent and put those excess miles on someone’s else’s car not mine.

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Kmac]

49 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

What happened did I had to stop every 2.5 hours, 200miles or so, sometimes less, for at least a half hour. 
 

From Miami to LA 8-9 hrs of charging was added to the trip. 
 

never again. 

It is hard for me to critique your driving style without the specifics...

What was your average charge percentage when you started supercharging?  What was your average charge when you completed supercharging?

There is a huge difference in charge time going from 10%-70% compared to 30%-90%...when your battery is nearing 70% charge there are still plenty of electrons to find and it doesn't take long to find them...when you are nearing a full charge there are less and less electrons to find and change polarity; that's why it takes longer...

You can tell your software to remove charging stops, and very often, my software tells me that I will arrive with -2% or something but as I continue with the drive the number changes and I end up at my destination with 3, 4, or 5%

Usually the best way to go faster in an EV is to slow down...try to skip a charging stop all together...

 

My Tesla is perfect for the driving that I do 350 days per year... I can "suffer" through a little extra time on cross country trips the other 15 days per year...

 

27 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I assume most would not be good snow cars because even though they are called SUV’s and may be all wheel drive most of the new electric SUV’s only have about 5” ground clearance?

My father in law had a heart attack during the largest snowstorm this year...I had to pick up their dog and obviously used my Tesla...it was one of the best performing cars in the snow I've ever had... it is very rare that the snowplows can't keep the snow depth below 5" on the roads...

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Unfortunately that ad you got is incorrect,

I have no idea what you mean by incorrect.  The utility company is giving money to those who install an EV charger.  That is a subsidy for EVs.  What is incorrect?

[mike_elliott]

A simple NEMA 14-50 plug is all I added to my panel located in my garage. $60 USD worth of material at Home Depot. Hardly worth filling out a tax form to get $5 worth of credit. That said, if it is troubling that your missing out, simply install it now, take the "subsidy" for not if, but when you do get your electric car

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I have no idea what you mean by incorrect.  The utility company is giving money to those who install an EV charger.  That is a subsidy for EVs.  What is incorrect?

Your telling me that your electric company will give you $4,000 for buying an electric car, and another $500 for installing the charger and $400 for the wiring?

What electric company do you have? Boy I’d jump on that. That’s free money, buy a Tesla take delivery get your free money and sell the Tesla at a profit, yes that’s right used very low milage Tesla’s are selling for more than new because there is no wait, order a Tesla and it’s up to 6 months before you’ll get one and some just won’t wait. At least in S Fl a less than 30 day old Tesla with 100 or 200 miles sells for well more than what it costs to order one.

Here is Carvana’s  listings near me, Yeah, people are crazy  These are honest used cars not those  100 mile cars, but they aren’t Carvana cars either. Remember I paid 42 for our 2021 Standard range and it has a couple of add ons too like a paint surcharge

https://www.carvana.com/cars/tesla?utm_source=google&utm_medium=sem_nb&utm_term=1&utm_campaign=14817593189&utm_content=122939779370&utm_target=kwd-139012484&utm_creative=549043308641&utm_device=c&utm_adposition=&utm_rollup=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAvaGRBhBlEiwAiY-yMNosVlRyatbjeRYHWS4QKHLsMn9VEJylNouuDEuiwKHWzG7ajyDm3BoCYFYQAvD_BwE

I’ve heard of crazy things with electric companies like “free nights” where electric car owners don’t pay anything to charge and of course variable rates so you can charge at cheap rates,but never heard of one giving away thst kind of money.

I suspect they are saying that the Federal Government will give you a tax credit in those amounts, many say the Federal Government will give you the money, but they don’t, it’s a tax credit.

I spoke to my CPA about that and they way my Retirement is structured about the only tax liability I have is my Military Retirement which didn’t make it worthwhile for me to buy a car that there were still tax credits for, Tesla’s ran out quite a while ago,I believe GM’s has also and some others surely.

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

I paid $8,000 less for this car new, four months ago?

https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/2227726

 

on edit, apparently that car sold between the time I posted it and now, yes people are nuts

 

double edit, there is this one, again for $8,000 more than I paid, but wait, it’s a FOUR YR OLD car. it is a long range though, but four years old?

https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/2243196

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

16 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Your telling me that your electric company will give you $4,000 for buying an electric car, and another $500 for installing the charger and $400 for the wiring?

https://loup.energywisenebraskagoev.com/electric-vehicle-charging-station-incentive/

[A64Pilot]

Dude, what’s stopping you. take the money and run

You know honestly that kind of “thing” to say it nicely is what’s putting us down the drain economy wise, what fool thinks this stuff up?

There is zero problem with selling Tesla’s I’ll bet very soon the popular models will be sold out for this year.

So what’s the incentive needed for?

On edit the federal tax incentives have from the beginning really bothered me, why? Because face it, the earlier model Tesla’s were rich peoples cars, so the tax payer is paying so that rich couples can buy a new expensive car? 

Is it only me that has a problem with that?  

Edited March 9, 2022 by A64Pilot