Questions after my first familiarization flight

[thinwing]

39 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

I pulled my comments, I was working late and grouchy last night.  Thanks for the feedback!

Im grouchy if Im working.....doesnt have to be late!!

[Mufflerbearing]

I personally like the 1000' at 2 minutes calculation.  500' descent is comfortable for my passengers and the plane.  At cruise/altitude, my plane is at 21" mp.  During descent, I just keep it at 21" which keeps my speed reasonable and keeps my cht's good as well.  When I hit the midfield downwind, out comes 16" mp and drop the gear/gumps.  Abeam the numbers, out comes 11" mp and 10 degree flaps.  Turn to base is full flaps and final is a simple last gumps check.

IFR is totally different.  Your CFII can go over those things when you start your IFR training.  You can also reach out then and I'll be glad to go over that with you.  No need to confuse the situation now.

Flying a Mooney is all about energy management.  The plane flies like my Porsche drives.  I wouldn't change it for the world.  Just stay ahead and love it.  Mooney is a special plane.  Glad you are here and I have learned so much from this incredible group of people.

[Pete M]

On 1/27/2022 at 6:44 PM, carusoam said:

Prop max….  Makes for a great brake… feels similar to down shifting into a turn…

then see Eric’s note above about the prop driving the engine….

 

One of these days… I’m coming to find you!  (Note on my desk says find Pete….)

 

For really slowing down…(E-descent)

Speed brakes out, gear down, throttle out, prop in, air speed at Vg….  Descent rate is well off the VSI scale.  You will be on the ground in a few minutes….  Be ready.

 

There are various methods of removing energy from your flight…

That include S-turns, flap deployment, slips, and slow flight…..

 

Most people around here are attempting efficient flight… wasting energy at the end of the flight won’t be suitable…

Stay cleaned up, descending at about 400fpm, will give a very high IAS… use caution, exceeding maneuvering speed is pretty easy as power increases with descent…. Plan the descent pretty far back if flying at higher altitudes…

Sooner or later, you have to pull the MP back….  
 

Best regards,

-a-

I agree, conventional wisdom is such that high rpm breaking would get the job done but I found in my E that since the horn went off at around 13.5 or 14 inches and the engine was actually making power there that 2700 only exacerbated the problem. I liked to get down through the bumps at 120mph or below and the 15/1950 worked much better. I also liked to stay high out of the bumps and descend late. The op can also pull power, hold the nose up, slow to say 120 and then descend, possible with gear out. Lots of ways to skin the cat. My sense is his cfi is descending it like a 172, just pull power and let the nose drop. Cant do that in the mooney, it retains too much energy. My favorite, blow over the runway at 160kts and 100ft and execute a climbing left turn  onto downwind:) Scares the students though:)

I also think the cfi is not allowing enough space for level flight prior to pattern entry for the airplane to slow. He's probably also allowing the plane to descend slightly while trying to slow, hence not much change in speed. Rookie mistakes. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Pete M

[Pete M]

As to short field, I believe the faa says anything less the 150% of calculated distances is short field. Thats what i teach. Obstacles above 50ft, you're on your own, i cant do trig...:)

[A64Pilot]

The won’t slow down and come down thing isn’t really an issue, Mooney’s are just different from others is all. It’s literally just a matter of starting down sooner is all.

Personally Ido the 500 FPM and start well before the 2 min per 1,000 ft of altitude you need to lose because you speed up in the descent, and it’s way easier to be lower then you needed than higher.

Descend 200’ lower than planned altitude and pull up, with power low she will slow down quickly. I don’t drop gear until I’m in the white arc myself and that 200 ft climb makes that easy.

Only real difference between helicopter flying and airplanes is on final you bring the nose up on a helicopter and leave it there, that will quickly get you in trouble with a airplane.

For me anything less than 2,000 ft at seal level in my J is short and I won’t do it as I fly it heavy, not a light airplane with full fuel and two large people. I can get it down and stopped in less than 1,000 on grass, but it would have to leave as a helicopter sling load, 2,000 ft with any kind of obstruction is pushing it in my airplane.

Now my Maule 300’ over a 50’ obstruction wasn’t too big a deal. Average day seal level and not heavy.

Edited January 29, 2022 by A64Pilot

[donkaye]

On 1/27/2022 at 3:44 PM, carusoam said:

Prop max….  Makes for a great brake… feels similar to down shifting into a turn…

Just to be clear, when gliding pulling the prop all the way back (closer to a "feather" situation) will increase the gliding distance.  However, when under power, low RPM (or a coarse prop) will provide braking with the added benefit of the engine running the prop and not the prop running the engine, a condition not good for your engine.

Until you're in the pattern MP should never be set below 15".  Unless there is an RPM range limitation, engine management calls for MP no less than 15" and RPM at 2000.

It's important to know several things relative to engine management.  One is the "key number" for 75% power in your airplane.  Key number is determined by adding MP to the RPM/100.  For the Bravo that number is 53, 29"/24 (2400RPM).  Another is that ROP 1" of MP is approximately 3½ percent power and 100 RPM is the same.  So 10% of power can be any combination of 3: 1" and 200 RPM: 2"and 100 RPM; or 300 RPM.

From the above it is clear that reducing RPM in descent by 300 RPM will reduce power by 10%.  For me, if I want a safe steep descent (for example staying high longer due to lower level turbulence) without harming the engine and without slipping, I will gradually reduce MP  to no less than 15" and reduce RPM to 2000, add speed brakes (if you have them), gear, and if necessary, full flaps, and point the nose down to attain a speed at the top of the white arc.

Bottom line: when under power reducing RPM reduces power and prevents the prop running the engine.  THAT is like gearing down in a car.

[BravoWhiskey]

On 1/27/2022 at 8:27 PM, Papa K said:

I sincerely appreciate everyone concern about safety.

Thanks to all who have commented on this - too many to quote each one, but I'd like to address some of the comments:

1. Yes, I read the POH a couple of times, but as this was my first flight, my instant recall of the details was lacking. I have re-read parts and things are making more sense and I expect the understanding to improve.

2. Regarding my CFI.  It is fair to say that he is not a Mooney specific CFI, he has flown dozens of different makes and models, but has less than 50 hours in a Mooney.  It is sound advice that I seek out a Mooney experienced CFI. 

Prior to starting the transition training, I thought about flying with a Mooney specific CFI.  The challenge is that  I am in a fairly rural area and there are no Mooney CFI's within a reasonable drive.  My initial goal is to get the 10 training for insurance and this Spring or Summer have follow up training with a Mooney experienced CFI.  I know were a couple are but it is a 90 drive and scheduling to get 10 hours would be very difficult.

BUT, it is not fair to say the CFI is just along for the ride.  My initial flight training was military helicopters and I eventually became a test pilot.  I understand training plans and aircraft transitions. 

Prior to the familiarization flight, I spent several hours thoughtfully assessed my skills and developing a plan as I knew I had a lot to learn.  Therefore, I outlined my goal for the first flight AND the goals/flight plan for the next 6 - 7 flights.  It is all written and scripted out.  It is a step by step progression adding new tasks and skills each flight. 

My goals for the familiarization flight were simple:  get a feel for the flight controls and how the airplane handles; use a prop control for the first time - I wanted to know the correlation for the rate of turning the knob to the rate of changing RPM;  simple S-turns but no steep turns or stalls (later flight) - I wanted to know how much back pressure to apply in a turn to keep level; altitude changes of minimum of 2000' - I wanted to see how MP and RPM react during climbs and descents; and 5-6 full stop landings - no touch and goes.  Part of my request to my CFI was to keep me in safe parameters as I learn how the airplane handles and how changing throttle and prop causes the airplane to react. 

Thanks again for all the pointers and discussions.  I truly do appreciate all the help.  I think a Mooney PPP is a good idea.

 

SO.. what are the 3 takeaways from the first flight:

1. I need to pay attention to the layout of the airspeed indicator.  I was reading MPH not KIAS to lower the gear.  I will make that adjustment the next flight and that should help to slow down in the pattern.

2. Flying the numbers are airspeed not MP/RPM - thanks to all who commented on that - 100/90/80 - got it

3.  Level off earlier - part of a larger lesson of plan ahead as things move a lot faster than I am used to.  I stead of slowing down as I enter downwind, I need to start slowing down at the county line.

 

Thanks to all!

 

@KLudwick worked with me on my transition and he's nowhere near me... he flew commercial to meet me for a weekend of training and ferry flight.  Weather was favorable enough of course to get a whole weekend booked up.  Also, some of these guys will fly their own plane out to your field to meet you depending on how far you might be from them.  My opinion, might be worth looking into a Mooney specific CFI earlier on so you dont pickup any bad habits ..

[A64Pilot]

Actually decreasing prop pitch when at low power can cause the prop to drive the engine, not increasing it.

Driving the engine is where a lot of the braking comes from.

But you don’t have to do that, just start your let down earlier. I’ve even told ATC that I needed a slow descent because I have a two year old onboard, which isn’t a lie as our dog is two. You tell them that and they won’t ask for a slam dunk approach. With the dog aboard I aim for 300 FPM.

I still go with gradual power reductions, maybe not the old 1” per min, but shock cooling is real, maybe not as big a deal as it used to be considered, but large power reductions particularly in a high speed descent should be avoided if possible.

Edited January 29, 2022 by A64Pilot

[donkaye]

31 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Actually decreasing prop pitch when at low power can cause the prop to drive the engine, not increasing it.

Driving the engine is where a lot of the braking comes from.

As I mentioned, no MP lower than 15" or the prop could be driving the engine (prop goes flat, low pitch).  Not good.  But, as I mentioned under power, a 300 RPM drop (prop pitch increases) will approximate a 10% reduction in power.

[A64Pilot]

 Manifold pressure isn’t I’m afraid a real good measure of when to decrease pitch, I can and I’m sure others too can descend from altitude with cruise power set, 500 FPM right at VNE, if I were to reduce power to 15” and increase pitch to 2700, I’m pretty sure being at or close to 196 kts at min pitch, the engine will be driven, but not even close if my airspeed was 120 or so. Anytime you feel that prop race up, then decrease in RPM as the governor catches it, it’s likely it was driving the engine

Now a C-210 with gear down and those Fowler flaps at full can drop like a rock, so apparently can a Bonanza, but a Mooney just cant.

No problem, just fly it like a Mooney and stop trying to descend like a Cessna or Beech etc and you will have no problem at all. 

My contention is is your having to do any kind of trick to lose altitude, you didn’t start your descent soon enough. Not saying don’t keep the tricks up your sleeve, just don’t use them regularly.

[donkaye]

16 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

 Manifold pressure isn’t I’m afraid a real good measure of when to decrease pitch, I can and I’m sure others too can descend from altitude with cruise power set, 500 FPM right at VNE, if I were to reduce power to 15” and increase pitch to 2700, I’m pretty sure being at or close to 196 kts at min pitch, the engine will be driven, but not even close if my airspeed was 120 or so. Anytime you feel that prop race up, then decrease in RPM as the governor catches it, it’s likely it was driving the engine

The subtleties of engine management really can't be taught on forum like this.  You've got to go up and fly.  Playing around with the power settings, it is pretty obvious when the prop is running the engine, and below 15" MP when not in the pattern is a good rule of thumb in my opinion.

[salty]

Some will probably disagree with me, but flying my C for hundreds of hours in cruise with a EDM-900 engine monitor, and G5's showing TAS, I could never see any noticable difference in airspeed with the flaps closed. I also never had trouble keeping the temps up on a decent. 

Personally, after playing with them on a bunch of cross countries, I left them open all the time for the last 400 or so hours. 

 

YMMV

[A64Pilot]

Cowl flaps on my J costs a couple of kts, high power ROP cruise I have to have them at least half way open and sometimes fully open to keep the temp in the middle of the green

22 squared LOP I have to keep them fully closed and sometimes have to increase to 23” just to keep the temps in the bottom of the green.

Any speed cowl flaps cost is just what it is, don’t fly high cyl temps to keep them closed trying to gain a couple of kts of course, my goal is middle of the green, but can’t always get there LOP, LOP is often the lower part of the green.

 

However my oil temp always runs low?

Edited January 29, 2022 by A64Pilot

[donkaye]

25 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Cowl flaps on my J costs a couple of kts, high power ROP cruise I have to have them at least half way open and sometimes fully open to keep the temp in the middle of the green

22 squared LOP I have to keep them fully closed and sometimes have to increase to 23” just to keep the temps in the bottom of the green.

Any speed cowl flaps cost is just what it is, don’t fly high cyl temps to keep them closed trying to gain a couple of kts of course, my goal is middle of the green, but can’t always get there LOP, LOP is often the lower part of the green.

 

However my oil temp always runs low?

Navigation lights must remain on for ADS-B Out???

[Guest]

1 minute ago, donkaye said:

Navigation lights must remain on for ADS-B Out???

Uavionx Tail beacon

[hammdo]

If he has the rear nav light with the adsb beacon, yep...

[Will.iam]

On 1/27/2022 at 4:58 PM, M20Doc said:

You forgot:

Anything smaller that an IO-720 is a trainer engine!

Clarence

But at least not a gas guzzler.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Will.iam said:

But at least not a gas guzzler.

It’s not nearly as bad as you’d imagine.  Like a Mooney or any other airplane, if you’re in a hurry it burns fuel.  On Saturday I flew beside a Cessna Skylane for 100 miles.  The Skylane was burning 13 GPH, I was burning 9 GPH for 135 KTS.

Clarence

[Will.iam]

8 hours ago, M20Doc said:

It’s not nearly as bad as you’d imagine.  Like a Mooney or any other airplane, if you’re in a hurry it burns fuel.  On Saturday I flew beside a Cessna Skylane for 100 miles.  The Skylane was burning 13 GPH, I was burning 9 GPH for 135 KTS.

Clarence

That’s pretty good.  At what altitude? I say that as 9 gallons per hour is what i set mine for the majority of the time and speed will be dependent on alt. I get 150 at 5000 160 at 10k 170 at 17k etc all on same 9 gallons per hour.