FL210 in a N/A M20E

[Shadrach]

Quote: GTWreck

So RV-6 have empty weights in the 600-700lb range?

 

Edit: I just looked and an RV-6 has a significant weight advantage over an M20E, but it's more like 500lbs, not 1000+...

[xftrplt]

Quote Shadrach:

I tend to agree about the risks, but I would not judge someone who felt that they had adequately contemplated and prepared for those risks, unless it was revealed that they'd been negligent.

First, I judged no one.  I merely pointed out some hazards of high-altitude flight that I believe pertinent.  I do, however, strongly believe in Saturday-night quarterbacking--as well as the Monday-morning sort. 

Second, I don't give a hoot if folks make informed choices that result in them making unintended purchases of farm land.  I hate it, though, when they take innocents with them. 

Third, how fast a M20 will dive is conjectural, and I wouldn't, without an ejection seat, care to test its limits.  And how much forward pressure is required when the modest nose-down trim runs out?  And that's if the individual is still coherent. 

[gregwatts]

Quote: xftrplt

Quote Shadrach:

First, I judged no one. I merely pointed out some hazards of high-altitude flight that I believe pertinent. I do, however, strongly believe in Saturday-night quarterbacking--as well as the Monday-morning sort.

Second, I don't give a hoot if folks make informed choices that result in them making unintended purchases of farm land. I hate it, though, when they take innocents with them.

Third, how fast a M20 will dive is conjectural, and I wouldn't, without an ejection seat, care to test its limits. And how much forward pressure is required when the modest nose down trim runs out? And that's if the individual is still coherent.

[HartParr]

I remember trying things like that in my youth.

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: sreid

Ha! I've had my '67 F up to FL190 in the winter.  Still climbing around 300 fpm.  You've still got 5 minutes to figure it out and head down in the unlikely event you have some oxygen malfunction.  Take a trip to the altitude chamber at CAMI in OKC if you want to learn your signs that you're becoming hypoxic.  It's free, but you need to call and arrange it with some advance notice.

[M20F]

Quote: xftrplt

And how quickly could you get down with, say, an inflight fire?

[scottfromiowa]

"Based on what I observed, I think the airplane can do 250 at std atmosphere and light weight. I stopped at 210 ot of abundance of caution as I did not have a pulse oximeter (I do now, and want to learn all about it)." end quote

Why not judge?  Or evaluate the soundness of the decision-making based on the posted flight and acknowledgment that there was no use of pulse ox?  Back-up bottle/cannula?  I don't know.  210 is O.K., but 250 isn't?  Yeager walked away from a flat spin in an F-104 after ejection so, why not?

Knock yourself out dare devil test pilots and thrill seekers.  Yes, in my mind that is what this is vs. looking at the exposures and potential outcomes vs. the value of completing the mission.  We are not military pilots where mission completion is the bottom line...Frankly the only reason that I care about this is that my insurance might go up with more accidents and I see it as an opportunity to re-assess when there was no incident and consider the value/reward for "doing it" vs. the ramifications if things don't work out.

Didn't a couple of pilots take a Citation on a climb to the point of flame-out and ultimately fail to re-start and auger in?  How would this be evaluated if the O2 system failed and there was no pulse ox and back-up bottle etc.  Just something to think about.  Bottom line is I'm not "impressed" by going into the flight levels in an M20E.  If others wish to do it be my guest, but I won't be respectful if something happens and it is discussed on this board.  I will say "he made poor decision and paid for it.  The end.

[Swingin]

Quote: xftrplt

I hate to sound curmudgeonly, but I think flying a Mooney into the Flight Levels is, for most people, playing with fire.

Our O2 equipment is primitive (laughable by military/airline standards); and, I suspect most pilots haven't had altitude training (not to mention recurrent chamber rides).

And how quickly could you get down with, say, an inflight fire?

There's also the temptation to top wx you shouldn't be overflying--with no escape route.  

The USAF--with full masks and diluter-demand/100% O2 equipment maintained by pros and tested before each flight--restricts unpressurized flight to FL250, as do Part 121 regs for air carriers.  And this is for equipment that can generate descent rates greater than 4000 FPM.

I've never been accused of excessive caution in aviation matters, but I believe this is an area that warrants considerable trepidation.  

Scott(fromiowa) put it best with his laconic post:  No thank you. 

Happy New Year.

[Shadrach]

Quote: xftrplt

Quote Shadrach:

First, I judged no one.  I merely pointed out some hazards of high-altitude flight that I believe pertinent.  I do, however, strongly believe in Saturday-night quarterbacking--as well as the Monday-morning sort. 

Second, I don't give a hoot if folks make informed choices that result in them making unintended purchases of farm land.  I hate it, though, when they take innocents with them. 

Third, how fast a M20 will dive is conjectural, and I wouldn't, without an ejection seat, care to test its limits.  And how much forward pressure is required when the modest nose-down trim runs out?  And that's if the individual is still coherent. 

[xftrplt]

Ross,

Thanks, no offense taken.

Dick

[xftrplt]

Quote: Swingin

While I can respect your opinion, I take issue with some of your reasoning.  

First, the time of useful conciousness at FL220 is 5-10 minutes, easily enough time to get yourself to a lower altitude.  I'd also encourage anyone wanting to operate in the FLs to get altitude training, but the assumption that most don't have it isn't enough to judge someone for doing it.

As far is getting to a lower altitude with an inflight fire - how about a 747-400, or a B1900, or a blimp for that matter?  I fail to see how this is any more or less of a problem in a normally aspirated Mooney.

Third, your argument about overflying adverse wx with no 'out' if you are in the FLs doesn't really make sense as one would need to be on an IFR clearance to be in the FLs in the first place.

Also the FL250 restriction you cite for the Air Force is a function of decompression sickness and has nothing to do with the partial pressure of oxygen.

I say, if you know the potential hazards and have a plane that can do it, have fun.

[Swingin]

Quote: xftrplt

[xftrplt]

No need for us to live in a nanny state though; if someone wants to do it, have fun and get smart - never before has there been such a wealth of information available to all.  Which is why I take issue when I see fallacies or 'WOMs' propagated.  Agree to disagree.

No argument from me. 

Check6,

Dick

[GeorgePerry]

I've got to agree with xftrplt on this one.  As someone who's been through multiple atitude chamber rides and has experinced Hypoxia first hand, it's nothing to triffle with.  Infact when I flew tomcats I had a canopy seal blow out climbing through 25K.  I had my mask on, my backseater (RIO) did not.  Before I could finish running through a quick emergency decent proceedure he had passed out.  I was still concious since my mask was on and pumping 100% O2 into my lungs.  Even at more benign altitudes, above 18K MSL a pilot's time of useful conciousness is just a couple of short minutes...not nearly enough time to get down if somehting goes wrong.  Chamber rides familiarize one with their specific symptoms for hypoxia, but everyone is different.  Those without the high altitude chamber training should tread lightly an treat the thin air above 12000 with respect.  At a minimum have a backup plan if something doesn't go as expected.

 

[xftrplt]

Quote: GeorgePerry

...my backseater (RIO) did not.  Before I could finish running through a quick emergency decent proceedure he had passed out.

[OR75]

I am not too impressed since I am not sure what point the aviator is trying to make (ground speed is pathetic !). But, he can go ahead and do it as long as (1) my insurance premium does not go up if something happened, (2) our government does not feel it needs to come up with new regs if something happened 

[AndyFromCB]

[AndyFromCB]

Quote: Swingin

[Chessieretriever]

Obviously there are many points of view to consider based on all of the opinions on this board. The main one seems to be the confidence and comfort level of the operator in this environment. We have a Ranger and a liquid cooled Rocket (which we bought from Jason). We fly both in the flight levels. Last Month we climbed with the Ranger to 17000 using the turbo for the climb and then pulled the turbo leaving the engine in a naturally apirated environment which allowed us to lean agressively, take advantage of a good tail wind and still get 5.5 hours of range with our '62 model Ranger to make 1200nm non top with legal IFR reserves (see http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N92AV/history/20111209/1601Z/KHUM/KMPO). The problems encountered are not airplane related (in this particular case we got so cold that we decided to down to warm up). We have had our carburated Ranger to FL230 but saw that the fuel pressure at that altitude is too low for comfort (still running fine but had only 2.5psig pressure) for us. Our Liquid Rocket will cruise at FL250 all day long with corresponding speeds and economy.

[xftrplt]

--  Re FL250.  Many narrow-body airliners--737, MD-80--may not be dispatched above FL250 on a single pack.  (Though lacking redundancy, a single pack will pressurize the aircraft according to the standard schedule.)

--  Re O2 systems.  The overall robustness, connections and masks on airline/military equipment are of much higher grade.  No slip-connections or thin plastic lines that can kink, flexible tight-sealing masks, plus Diluter-Demand/100% regulators with positive-pressure capability and flow indicators--to name a few examples.  These are facts, not "loaded comments."

[skyking]

I have had my "A" at 18,000 feet more than once.

[M20F]

I really don't understand this argument.  I have flown turbocharged aircraft almost the entirey of my flying life, generally we stop in the teens as the payout to go higher usually isn't there.  There are times though when the FL's help the mission and we fly in them.  That is why we have turbo chargers, I certainly don't view it as being reckless.  As I said make sure you care a pulse oximeter and ensure you have a secondary method of getting oxygen.

I certainly wouldn't buy an Acclaim S and fly it around at 8,000 feet.  

[Shadrach]

Quote: OR75

I am not too impressed since I am not sure what point the aviator is trying to make (ground speed is pathetic !). But, he can go ahead and do it as long as (1) my insurance premium does not go up if something happened, (2) our government does not feel it needs to come up with new regs if something happened 

[Immelman]

[OR75]

Quote: Shadrach

How do you know what his GS was?  I did not see a GPS or DME readout.