Mooney crash near PUJ

[aviatoreb]

16 minutes ago, KB4 said:

Cited as FAA Office of Mgt systems hours flown versus accidents. Not my material to post. It says “need consent to reproduce”

Fair enough - its why I asked - I respect that need consent to reproduce”

It may be a restudy from a good amount of generally available data from the  FAA Office of Mgt but not something I could just look up.

I keep wanting to go to that MAPA school !  Its always a time of year that is impossible job wise.  I got to stop making that excuse soon...

E

[Wayne Cease]

Mooney has MAPA, dedicated improving safety and also maintenance is also discussed. Do other manufacturers? I haven’t checked.

There is a Twin Cessna group, an Aerostar group and COPA for Cirrus. All independent of the manufacturers.



Wayne

[EricJ]

From the pics in the Kathryn's report page it must have been a near vertical descent.   The trees around it seem undisturbed, and there are two large trees just behind the wings.  The flaps look like they're all the way down.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/11/mooney-m20f-executive-21-fatal-accident.html

 

[DXB]

On 11/9/2021 at 1:08 AM, DCarlton said:

Found the database.  23 Mooney accidents this year.  16 fatalities.  I had no idea there were 2-3 a month. 

A request: Please post the number of accidents that had fatalities so far this year?  I started a thread a while back after tabulating the # lethal accidents annually across the fleet annually since 1961.  For the past decade, it was pretty stable at ~7/year when averaged over 5 year increments. Presumably the gradual decrease in size of fleet and hours flown over that period is continuing, so a big spike now would be particularly alarming.

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by DXB

[GeeBee]

Interesting, despite a hard impact, I don't see a fire.

 

[carusoam]

Things that help keep us out of the weeds…
 

+1 for additional training….

+1 for MAPA training…

+1 for Mooney Summit…

+1 for continuous discussions on MS…

+1 for having a good relationship with your maintainer…

+1 for good use of statistics…

+1 for good engine monitors… and the skill to use them.

+1 for good luck! 

 

Fortune favors the prepared mind… - Louis Pasteur 

 

PP thoughts only… prayers for the lost airman / brother.

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

I have to say, I have in the last few years seen some things that have me shaking my head on engine maintenace. One is the number of people who do not understand the relationship of cylinder base nut torque to the engine's ability to retain the main bearing. I also see a lot of shoddy field overhauls that actually leave the engine in worse shape than before the overhaul. Last month a friend from CA called and asked if the rod bearing cap bolts on a Lycoming have to be replaced after removal. I said, "critical". He said the guy overhauling their tow plane said he could re-use the old ones! The number of field overhauls where fasteners are reused rather than replaced is frightening. Just a lot of poor work, by unseasoned A&P out there. 

[MMsuper21]

24 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I have to say, I have in the last few years seen some things that have me shaking my head on engine maintenace. One is the number of people who do not understand the relationship of cylinder base nut torque to the engine's ability to retain the main bearing. I also see a lot of shoddy field overhauls that actually leave the engine in worse shape than before the overhaul. Last month a friend from CA called and asked if the rod bearing cap bolts on a Lycoming have to be replaced after removal. I said, "critical". He said the guy overhauling their tow plane said he could re-use the old ones! The number of field overhauls where fasteners are reused rather than replaced is frightening. Just a lot of poor work, by unseasoned A&P out there. 

It's scary always ask and try to be present, just started my ownership journey but have lots of experience with cars. I called a shop today in Florida PM me I will let you know which one. 

The guy answering the phone did not know what a Mooney was, first red flag. I asked to speak with the mechanic since the shop was mentioned on MS and asked if they worked on Mooney's with a strong answer Yes we do. I followed up asking if they swing the gear and if they have installed the nose truss spacer kit. No they haven't heard of it, but they are happy to work on my Mooney.  

In these unprecedented times people cut corners and seek out the first available mechanic. Do your research and talk to your mechanic I get concerned if I know more than my mechanic. If I am not around I ask for them to take pictures of the work, for resources and procedures online, I am lucky to have access to the previous shop that worked on the Mooney to bounce of questions and concerns. Trust but verify. 

[GeeBee]

One of the problems I see is service manuals has become a profit center above and beyond manufacturing. I am not sure how you fix access to manuals for mechanics, but  somehow there needs to be an easy and economical means to access service manuals. IMHO each purchase of powerplants, airframes, appliances should include a thumb drive of the manuals, S/N identified that travels with the logs.

[mike_elliott]

If anyone has contact information for Mr. Hicks potential surviving spouse, please PM me.

[201Steve]

On the topic of poor workmanship, I am having my engine overhauled for the second time this year, at a different shop. It’s a real problem. 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, GeeBee said:

One of the problems I see is service manuals has become a profit center above and beyond manufacturing. I am not sure how you fix access to manuals for mechanics, but  somehow there needs to be an easy and economical means to access service manuals. IMHO each purchase of powerplants, airframes, appliances should include a thumb drive of the manuals, S/N identified that travels with the logs.

It’s a very real problem.  Cessna charges around $1000 per model per year, you have to do a lot of maintenance to pay for them let alone make a profit.

Manuals for the Beaver we work on are $2500 per year!

Clarence

[takair]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

It’s a very real problem.  Cessna charges around $1000 per model per year, you have to do a lot of maintenance to pay for them let alone make a profit.

Manuals for the Beaver we work on are $2500 per year!

Clarence

Plus the tooling and calibrations they call out!  One thing that the FAA leaves a mixed message on……they require repair stations to work to the latest available manuals, but there has been  interpretation that the aircraft only needs to be maintained to the manual or standards at the time of production…..unless there is an AD or regulatory update to the manual.  So, in this interpretation, as long as the aircraft is operated on part 91 and there have been no ADs, what is it that would require one to have the “latest” manual?  I recognize you are in Canada, so things are different.  Not that I encourage ignoring the latest information, but it is possible.  Working for an OEM or two, I see this often…..when operators can legally ignore our updates unless we get an AD on them. Perhaps worthy it’s own thread, since Mooney has historically been rather free with manuals, so likely not a contributor….even in their current situation….but it hints at the variable levels of legal maintenance.  The fix to this would likely be regulatory, but that could encourage OEMs to charge even more.

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Manuals for the Beaver we work on are $2500 per year!

Back in the day the beavers I ...... oh never mind

 

[exM20K]

On 11/10/2021 at 2:31 PM, DXB said:

A request: Please post the number of accidents that had fatalities so far this year?  I started a thread a while back after tabulating the # lethal accidents annually across the fleet annually since 1961.  For the past decade, it was pretty stable at ~7/year when averaged over 5 year increments. Presumably the gradual decrease in size of fleet and hours flown over that period is continuing, so a big spike now would be particularly alarming.

 

Important to distinguish between fatalities and fatal accidents.  NTSB shows 7 fatal accidents YTD  3 are non US

-Dan

Edited November 13, 2021 by exM20K

[DXB]

1 minute ago, exM20K said:

Important to distinguish between fatalities and fatal accidents.  NTSB shows 7 fatal accidents YTD

-Dan

So basically no change for 2021 (*fingers crossed for December).  

[exM20K]

@DXB is your data set US only or whatever is in the NTSB database? This years records include 2 in Canada and 1 in Europe