aviatoreb Posted November 9, 2021 Report Posted November 9, 2021 16 minutes ago, KB4 said: Cited as FAA Office of Mgt systems hours flown versus accidents. Not my material to post. It says “need consent to reproduce” Fair enough - its why I asked - I respect that need consent to reproduce” It may be a restudy from a good amount of generally available data from the FAA Office of Mgt but not something I could just look up. I keep wanting to go to that MAPA school ! Its always a time of year that is impossible job wise. I got to stop making that excuse soon... E 1 Quote
Wayne Cease Posted November 9, 2021 Report Posted November 9, 2021 Mooney has MAPA, dedicated improving safety and also maintenance is also discussed. Do other manufacturers? I haven’t checked.There is a Twin Cessna group, an Aerostar group and COPA for Cirrus. All independent of the manufacturers.Wayne Quote
EricJ Posted November 10, 2021 Report Posted November 10, 2021 From the pics in the Kathryn's report page it must have been a near vertical descent. The trees around it seem undisturbed, and there are two large trees just behind the wings. The flaps look like they're all the way down. http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/11/mooney-m20f-executive-21-fatal-accident.html Quote
DXB Posted November 10, 2021 Report Posted November 10, 2021 (edited) On 11/9/2021 at 1:08 AM, DCarlton said: Found the database. 23 Mooney accidents this year. 16 fatalities. I had no idea there were 2-3 a month. A request: Please post the number of accidents that had fatalities so far this year? I started a thread a while back after tabulating the # lethal accidents annually across the fleet annually since 1961. For the past decade, it was pretty stable at ~7/year when averaged over 5 year increments. Presumably the gradual decrease in size of fleet and hours flown over that period is continuing, so a big spike now would be particularly alarming. Edited November 10, 2021 by DXB 2 Quote
GeeBee Posted November 10, 2021 Report Posted November 10, 2021 Interesting, despite a hard impact, I don't see a fire. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted November 11, 2021 Report Posted November 11, 2021 Things that help keep us out of the weeds… +1 for additional training…. +1 for MAPA training… +1 for Mooney Summit… +1 for continuous discussions on MS… +1 for having a good relationship with your maintainer… +1 for good use of statistics… +1 for good engine monitors… and the skill to use them. +1 for good luck! Fortune favors the prepared mind… - Louis Pasteur PP thoughts only… prayers for the lost airman / brother. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
GeeBee Posted November 12, 2021 Report Posted November 12, 2021 I have to say, I have in the last few years seen some things that have me shaking my head on engine maintenace. One is the number of people who do not understand the relationship of cylinder base nut torque to the engine's ability to retain the main bearing. I also see a lot of shoddy field overhauls that actually leave the engine in worse shape than before the overhaul. Last month a friend from CA called and asked if the rod bearing cap bolts on a Lycoming have to be replaced after removal. I said, "critical". He said the guy overhauling their tow plane said he could re-use the old ones! The number of field overhauls where fasteners are reused rather than replaced is frightening. Just a lot of poor work, by unseasoned A&P out there. 2 Quote
MMsuper21 Posted November 12, 2021 Report Posted November 12, 2021 24 minutes ago, GeeBee said: I have to say, I have in the last few years seen some things that have me shaking my head on engine maintenace. One is the number of people who do not understand the relationship of cylinder base nut torque to the engine's ability to retain the main bearing. I also see a lot of shoddy field overhauls that actually leave the engine in worse shape than before the overhaul. Last month a friend from CA called and asked if the rod bearing cap bolts on a Lycoming have to be replaced after removal. I said, "critical". He said the guy overhauling their tow plane said he could re-use the old ones! The number of field overhauls where fasteners are reused rather than replaced is frightening. Just a lot of poor work, by unseasoned A&P out there. It's scary always ask and try to be present, just started my ownership journey but have lots of experience with cars. I called a shop today in Florida PM me I will let you know which one. The guy answering the phone did not know what a Mooney was, first red flag. I asked to speak with the mechanic since the shop was mentioned on MS and asked if they worked on Mooney's with a strong answer Yes we do. I followed up asking if they swing the gear and if they have installed the nose truss spacer kit. No they haven't heard of it, but they are happy to work on my Mooney. In these unprecedented times people cut corners and seek out the first available mechanic. Do your research and talk to your mechanic I get concerned if I know more than my mechanic. If I am not around I ask for them to take pictures of the work, for resources and procedures online, I am lucky to have access to the previous shop that worked on the Mooney to bounce of questions and concerns. Trust but verify. Quote
GeeBee Posted November 12, 2021 Report Posted November 12, 2021 One of the problems I see is service manuals has become a profit center above and beyond manufacturing. I am not sure how you fix access to manuals for mechanics, but somehow there needs to be an easy and economical means to access service manuals. IMHO each purchase of powerplants, airframes, appliances should include a thumb drive of the manuals, S/N identified that travels with the logs. 2 Quote
mike_elliott Posted November 12, 2021 Report Posted November 12, 2021 If anyone has contact information for Mr. Hicks potential surviving spouse, please PM me. Quote
201Steve Posted November 13, 2021 Report Posted November 13, 2021 On the topic of poor workmanship, I am having my engine overhauled for the second time this year, at a different shop. It’s a real problem. 3 Quote
Guest Posted November 13, 2021 Report Posted November 13, 2021 21 hours ago, GeeBee said: One of the problems I see is service manuals has become a profit center above and beyond manufacturing. I am not sure how you fix access to manuals for mechanics, but somehow there needs to be an easy and economical means to access service manuals. IMHO each purchase of powerplants, airframes, appliances should include a thumb drive of the manuals, S/N identified that travels with the logs. It’s a very real problem. Cessna charges around $1000 per model per year, you have to do a lot of maintenance to pay for them let alone make a profit. Manuals for the Beaver we work on are $2500 per year! Clarence Quote
takair Posted November 13, 2021 Report Posted November 13, 2021 1 hour ago, M20Doc said: It’s a very real problem. Cessna charges around $1000 per model per year, you have to do a lot of maintenance to pay for them let alone make a profit. Manuals for the Beaver we work on are $2500 per year! Clarence Plus the tooling and calibrations they call out! One thing that the FAA leaves a mixed message on……they require repair stations to work to the latest available manuals, but there has been interpretation that the aircraft only needs to be maintained to the manual or standards at the time of production…..unless there is an AD or regulatory update to the manual. So, in this interpretation, as long as the aircraft is operated on part 91 and there have been no ADs, what is it that would require one to have the “latest” manual? I recognize you are in Canada, so things are different. Not that I encourage ignoring the latest information, but it is possible. Working for an OEM or two, I see this often…..when operators can legally ignore our updates unless we get an AD on them. Perhaps worthy it’s own thread, since Mooney has historically been rather free with manuals, so likely not a contributor….even in their current situation….but it hints at the variable levels of legal maintenance. The fix to this would likely be regulatory, but that could encourage OEMs to charge even more. 1 Quote
mike_elliott Posted November 13, 2021 Report Posted November 13, 2021 1 hour ago, M20Doc said: Manuals for the Beaver we work on are $2500 per year! Back in the day the beavers I ...... oh never mind 5 Quote
exM20K Posted November 13, 2021 Report Posted November 13, 2021 (edited) On 11/10/2021 at 2:31 PM, DXB said: A request: Please post the number of accidents that had fatalities so far this year? I started a thread a while back after tabulating the # lethal accidents annually across the fleet annually since 1961. For the past decade, it was pretty stable at ~7/year when averaged over 5 year increments. Presumably the gradual decrease in size of fleet and hours flown over that period is continuing, so a big spike now would be particularly alarming. Important to distinguish between fatalities and fatal accidents. NTSB shows 7 fatal accidents YTD 3 are non US -Dan Edited November 13, 2021 by exM20K 1 Quote
DXB Posted November 13, 2021 Report Posted November 13, 2021 1 minute ago, exM20K said: Important to distinguish between fatalities and fatal accidents. NTSB shows 7 fatal accidents YTD -Dan So basically no change for 2021 (*fingers crossed for December). Quote
exM20K Posted November 13, 2021 Report Posted November 13, 2021 @DXB is your data set US only or whatever is in the NTSB database? This years records include 2 in Canada and 1 in Europe Quote
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