jamesm Posted October 5, 2021 Report Posted October 5, 2021 Hi, Not to start a debate or off track comments of avionics choices (there is never a shortages of opinions on the internet). I am working on my IFR rating and maybe one day. when my schedule and instructor schedule and weather and the airplane weird anomalies work them selves out and the annual out of the way. I might be on my way to obtaining the elusive Instrument ticket (elusive at least to me anyways). I am presuming one day that I might get to take the infamous IFR check ride and nav data for panel mount avionics will need to be up to date. I don't see that once the instrument rating is obtained the GNC255 would need it's nav db updated at regular intervals but for the check ride I would probably be wise for me to do so. Could someone please provide me some advice on the different bundling options or other other advice pertaining to nav data base options My setup is in a '67C 2 G5's gfc 500 AP, GNC 355 (GPS/COM) , GNC 255 (NAV/COM) , Area 560 (portable real old nav db ), Ipad mini 4 (ForeFlight/flyQ EFB). Seems odd to me world wide Jeppesen is cheaper than Garmin's House brand and the Untied States pack is cheaper than the North America data base? maybe I am not understanding Garmin's phraseology Thanks in advance, my apologies if this question has already been addressed. James '67C Quote
kortopates Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 Is there a question?The only worlwide coverage listed is Frequency data - for the radio.Jepp is great at answering questions about their services, part of their pluses. You should give them a call to get your questions answered.Do the same with Garmin and compare.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 Terse questions elicit terse responses… If you desire long written prose… start with giving your life’s history… Did I mention MS is on the internet…. But it is not the internet… Looks like Mr. Kortopates basically answered the question… There are three types of MSers commonly present… 1) Cheep Bastards… aka CBs… won’t pay for the extra frills… for whatever reason… not usually a shortage of dough… 2) Extravagant Bastards… aka EBs… not to be confused with Mr. E. Boltt…(different EB)… they pay up front for all the necessary items to make flying comfortable… because they know what they want, to get where they are going… 3) Poor Bastards… aka PBs…. Pilots just getting started on their newest endeavor… lots to learn, lots of work to get done… no time to experiment… stacks of cash are often hard to come by… Figure out what basket of Bastards you are in… that will pretty much determine if spending $500+ for a collection electronic charts is a good idea or not… especially if you are not flying the XCs under the hood… or in IMC… Then follow PK’s advice… get on the phone to best determine what package works best for you… nobody here is going to be able to do that for you… it’s all personal preference… Fun times ahead… don’t be in a rush to blow a half amu on charts until you really have to. Wish you asked a terse question…? Best regards, -a- 1 1 Quote
jamesm Posted October 6, 2021 Author Report Posted October 6, 2021 1 hour ago, kortopates said: The only worlwide coverage listed is Frequency data - for the radio. so If I understand your response correctly, The worldwide doesn't contain approach plates ? My apologies I didn't state my question clearly in the original post. Being a student instrument pilot, I don't know what items are an "absolute" and what is a "nice to have". So I know going to need to have terrain and obstacles and IFR enroute and approach charts as a minimum since (is my wag as to what I need). I am not understanding the phraseology between "bundle" and "one pack"? I really didn't get a straight answer when I had searched earlier. Garmin descriptions all looks the same to me other than the price to me. According to Garmin web site it says "OnePak annual subscriptions offer significant savings for an aircraft equipped with multiple Garmin products." So the term one "OnePak" which to me would imply if you had something like a G500 (PFD/MFD) or G3 display(s) or G1000 installed would probably need some sort nav db only a guess on my part. which make no since to me because if you one of the PFD/MFD displays installed you are probably not going to driven by a dual GNC navigator series so that option shouldn't be on the table for me. Quote
carusoam Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 for comparison… Not long ago… There was paper… One paper chart pretty much covered the local area, and then some… One book of approaches covered all the local approaches… The update cycle is about once a month or every 28 days… If you bought them as needed each month… that would cost about $10… In a similar fashion… The iPad now counts as a source of charts…. Which does everything except have a current database in your panel mounted GPS… This gets you VOR and ILS classic approaches… Updating one panel mounted WAAS GPS with approaches is a great idea… Updating them all.. as desired, because you can… Many back-up devices don’t often have current DBs…. Things that aid situational awareness aren’t always up to date… If you have decided…. All of your Garmin devices will be up to date… fantastic! Ipad and glide rings are Pretty nice… Back in the day there were real differences…. Jepp printed the best paper charts… too expensive for many students… Today… the hardware does the work for fancy graphics… See if you can trial both systems… Figure out how to load all these things up properly without spending a lifetime of time getting it done… Then see if you can get the little blue dot to show up on your approach plate on the iPad… Financial death by a thousand $1 cuts…. Expect to find most of the training is about controlling the plane… A lot of the magic may get turned off…. Lots of hand flying… When talking to both companies…. Expect to find that you like one service way better than the other… Competition is great for the customer… Don’t forget to report your findings… GO MS! PP thoughts only, not a CFII… Best regards, -a- Quote
PT20J Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 IFR training is like any IFR flying -- you need the same stuff (well, except for the hood ). Some databases for Garmin equipment must be purchased from Garmin (terrain/obstacles, for instance). For chart databases, Garmin supports both Jeppesen and it's own charts derived from FAA data. Some people prefer the Jeppesen format, some prefer the FAA charts, and some prefer whichever is cheapest. How about telling us exactly what equipment is in your airplane, and precisely in what geographical area you plan to operate. Perhaps then others could advise what subscriptions they have found applicable to those circumstances. Skip Quote
carusoam Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 @PT20J Skip… From the middle of Jame’s OP… No mention of area that I can find… Best regards, -a- “My setup is in a '67C 2 G5's gfc 500 AP, GNC 355 (GPS/COM) , GNC 255 (NAV/COM) , Area 560 (portable real old nav db ), Ipad mini 4 (ForeFlight/flyQ EFB).” 1 Quote
PT20J Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, carusoam said: @PT20J Skip… From the middle of Jame’s OP… No mention of area that I can find… Best regards, -a- “My setup is in a '67C 2 G5's gfc 500 AP, GNC 355 (GPS/COM) , GNC 255 (NAV/COM) , Area 560 (portable real old nav db ), Ipad mini 4 (ForeFlight/flyQ EFB).” Oops, I missed that -- thanks Anthony! 1 Quote
RobertGary1 Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 You need to ask your CFI what your dpe expects. Since you are unlikely to have your instrument check ride ifr it’s more a question of what the dpe expects. Thr 255 no way needs to be updated. Probably a few people on the planet who keep their com radio data see up to date (although I am one) 1 Quote
Mooney Dog Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, jamesm said: Seems odd to me world wide Jeppesen is cheaper than Garmin's House brand and the Untied States pack is cheaper than the North America data base? What you're really looking for on the GPS is NAVDATA. Jepp or Garmin can supply this and normally garmin is going to be a bit cheaper. the US pack is just the 50 states. The North America pack is canada, mexico, etc... A yearly subscription for NAVDATA from garmin should be about $300 for the GPS 175 series navigators. You might look into the US database bundle pack for $500 which will give you obstical, safe taxi, and terrain databases, and then downgrade to the regular navdata cycle since hopefully a mountain doesnt move and you dont need to update trrain data very often. I dont have my Jepp login handy right now so i can pull up their prices but they are competitive. I personally use garmin for my GNX 375 which is the same family of navigators you have. Some advice from a CFII. You're gonna need foreflight more than you need all the bells and whistles on your GPS for IFR training. The frequency data that jepp is sellign you for $25 in your screen shot is so your 255 says "oh this is X airport" when you tune that frequency. Nice to have, only need it one time really. Same with the terrain information and such. Get the $300 US yearly database if you need to save money, otherwise the bundle $500 US for the first year, then downgrade next year to just US navadata. Edited October 6, 2021 by Mooney Dog 1 Quote
midlifeflyer Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 9 hours ago, jamesm said: Being a student instrument pilot, I don't know what items are an "absolute" and what is a "nice to have". A lot of personal preference there. Here's a ferinstance... One of the club airplanes I fly has nice georeferenced approach plates I can pull up on screen. In the 3 years or so I've been flying it, I haven't used it. Why? Because I prefer the approach charts on my tablet where I can mark them up to highlight data I think is important for me to be able to review with a quick look and I can pinch/zoom/scroll more easily. "Nice to have," but for me more like, "I don't care." "Absolute" is current IFR navigation data. Enroute fixes, current SIDs, STARs, and IAPs. 1 Quote
rbridges Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 FWIW, I have a 430. I use my foreflight for taxi, but that's a personal preference. I only update the navigation DB. I haven't updated terrain/obstacle in years. It brings my annual price down to $299. Keeps me 100% legal for IFR flights. 1 Quote
jamesm Posted October 6, 2021 Author Report Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said: navigation data. Enroute fixes, current SIDs, STARs, and IAPs If I understand you correctly .... in Garmin terminology Navigation data = Enroute fixes, current SIDs, STARs, and IAPs ? Edited October 6, 2021 by jamesm Quote
midlifeflyer Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, jamesm said: If I understand you correctly .... in Garmin terminology Navigation data = Enroute fixes, current SIDs, STARs, and IAPs ? You gotta look at the description of the packages being offered and how often they need updating. Here's Jepp's description of its "NavData" package. I'd be very surprised if the basic Garmin navigation data package isn't the same . And yes, all of that would be in my "essential" list for a regular recurring subscription. Having the wrong frequency, the wrong procedure data, trying to tune in a VOR which no longer exists, are al killer items for me. OTOH, although I want one i the system, I'm less concerned with changes to a terrain and obstruction database (new towers come and go; mountains don't move that much) so I might just update every few years. Does that make sense? Edited October 6, 2021 by midlifeflyer 1 Quote
kortopates Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, jamesm said: If I understand you correctly .... in Garmin terminology Navigation data = Enroute fixes, current SIDs, STARs, and IAPs ? Yep and that single NavData DB is the only one you need to have to fly under an IFR flight plan. Everything else is purely personal preference. Since you're soon to become an instrument rated pilot, you should read up on what you can legally do with an outdated database since you commented that you may not need to keep it up to date after you get the rating. This will also be a topic of discussion on your checkride oral. To help you get started you'll find this is discussed in both the AIM and your POH AFMS for your Garmin Navigator. Since the different guidance may seem a bit contradictory, you need to know which one takes precedence or is binding. But there are some things you can do and some things you can't. But I'll add something to consider as you embark on this adventure. Becoming an instrument rated pilot is not just a commitment to get the rating over he course of 6 months to a year like the Private or even Commercial ticket is. Its really a forever commitment for as long as you want to fly in the IFR system. If one doesn't continue to use it regularly, even more so as a freshly rated instrument pilot, all of your instrument skills you are about to work so hard to gain will perish very quickly and you'll be back to VFR only within a year. Lastly, and what I've been leading up to, is that being able to fly in the system regularly is really going to require current navdata subscription. It just isn't practical to not need it for several months, then decide you'll be doing an IFR flight one day and purchase an update and get in installed in time. In actuality, if its been several months since a inexperienced IFR pilot last flew IFR, even though they may be legally current, in all likelihood they won't be proficient enough for safe IFR and IMC flight if they haven't be practicing regularly and will need to get back with their instructor for some needed proficiency training first. Edited October 6, 2021 by kortopates 5 1 Quote
David Lloyd Posted October 6, 2021 Report Posted October 6, 2021 I recently upgraded my Garmin subscription from my GNX375 to include my GI275s and Garmin Pilot. The bundle price includes the Pro software (georeferenced charts) for the Garmin Pilot leaving the base subscription price for that. The Garmin Pilot compared to Foreflight or flyQ is like comparing apple pie to cherry pie. Different, but all tasty and they both are still pie. But the difference is that the Garmin pilot may integrate a little better with your 355, and you may save a few bucks. The bundle pricing with all the SIDs, Stars, SafeTaxi, etc. is very nice to have anytime you may need it. Beats being caught short. For a little extra money, you can have all information you need, where ever you go in the US without having to worry about having what you need. As far as the 255 database, it's $25 and part of the bundle, go for it. Years ago, radios came along that had a programable memory for your favorite frequencies. I've had several radios with this feature, including a PAR200B installed a year ago. If you fly in and out of an airport with ATIS, clearance, ground, tower, departure and approach, I can see setting these up in the radio memory and using it for that airport. The RV had Dynon Skyview and would push frequencies to the Garmin SL30. That was a neat feature but only occasionally used. I usually had the next frequency dialed into the SL30 before Dynon would make a suggestion. Other times, I would dial the frequency without writing it down or taking time to look and see if Dynon was awake. I had to act quickly, lest I forget what frequency they said (good memory, but short). Some will say they can't get by without it. Might be good for you, depends on your flying. Only you can tell. 1 Quote
Marauder Posted October 7, 2021 Report Posted October 7, 2021 Hi, Not to start a debate or off track comments of avionics choices (there is never a shortages of opinions on the internet). I am working on my IFR rating and maybe one day. when my schedule and instructor schedule and weather and the airplane weird anomalies work them selves out and the annual out of the way. I might be on my way to obtaining the elusive Instrument ticket (elusive at least to me anyways). I am presuming one day that I might get to take the infamous IFR check ride and nav data for panel mount avionics will need to be up to date. I don't see that once the instrument rating is obtained the GNC255 would need it's nav db updated at regular intervals but for the check ride I would probably be wise for me to do so. Could someone please provide me some advice on the different bundling options or other other advice pertaining to nav data base options My setup is in a '67C 2 G5's gfc 500 AP, GNC 355 (GPS/COM) , GNC 255 (NAV/COM) , Area 560 (portable real old nav db ), Ipad mini 4 (ForeFlight/flyQ EFB). Seems odd to me world wide Jeppesen is cheaper than Garmin's House brand and the Untied States pack is cheaper than the North America data base? maybe I am not understanding Garmin's phraseology Thanks in advance, my apologies if this question has already been addressed. James '67CJames - all you need is the nav database to be current in the GPS. And even there, if you are a cheapskate, you can pull the FAA 28 day updates and compare it to the installed nav data (I don’t know anyone who does this). I have the Garmin Pilot Pak which covers my 650 and 255. The 255’s frequency database is to provide updated frequencies tied to the airport identifier that you see on the 255. It gets its position information from the GPS (the 355 in your case). You don’t need to update this (I do though). I didn’t see mentioned (or I missed it) but make sure you have your 255’s VOR check done. Since I have a 650, I do the VOR to VOR airborne comparison between the two navs per 91.171. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 7, 2021 Report Posted October 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Marauder said: you can pull the FAA 28 day updates and compare it to the installed nav data (I don’t know anyone who does this). We used to discuss the ins and outs of updating your database one point at a time…. Probably a decade ago… It would work if you knew exactly where you were going… like commuting between the same two airports all the time… The downside of that… is a quick change of plans due to weather… and you want to go nearest…. You would have no idea if you have all the points and available approaches in your DB… for the new destination… When it comes to CBs and their multiple uses of WD40…. As a de-icing fluid… you will know who was in that conversation…. Things have gotten too complex to be a run of the mill CB… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
PT20J Posted October 7, 2021 Report Posted October 7, 2021 21 hours ago, kortopates said: To help you get started you'll find this is discussed in both the AIM and your POH AFMS for your Garmin Navigator. Since the different guidance may seem a bit contradictory, you need to know which one takes precedence or is binding. But there are some things you can do and some things you can't. THIS^^^^^ The GPS (and other STC equipment) comes with an AFMS. It’s supposed to be added to the AFM/POH. With the STC, the LIMITATIONS section of the AFMS is legally binding just as any limitation listed in the original POH. Skip Quote
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