Ontario based Mooney lost

[larrynimmo]

One of the least expensive way to reduce bounces is the Landing Height System….with as little as it costs, every airplane should have it.  The call out gives you the confidence to stall/land greasing your wheels.

since I have had LHS I still on occasion have a slight bounce, but almost never…and it occurs due to wind buffeting messing with my landing

as for night landings, (typically less wind issues) as smooth at it can be.

[DXB]

 I've bounced many times - it was common to do so when I was new in the plane - usually just one bounce, but I've bounced twice on at least two occasions that I remember all too well; now it's rare but still happens once in a while in gusty conditions.  With one exception, it wasn't because I was trying to force it on the runway but rather because I didn't increase up elevator quite enough once over the runway. Not enough nose up trim after putting in full flaps sometimes contributed to my lack of precision with the elevator, and I also didn't focus on the sight picture at the end of the runway carefully enough to judge height accurately.  Back when I was sloppy, my saving grace  was that I never released back pressure on the yoke once the bounce happened. Now I also have the motor memory to add a bit of power back  to cushion the landing if the bounce has any height to it  -  I still do bounce once in a while, but it's generally a nonevent.

This accident reminds me of my closest call (at Slatington 69N) - the instance where I did try to force it on - a 2400 ft runway requiring a tight downwind to base turn because of rising terrain behind the approach end. Plus there's trees and rising terrain near the departure end.  I came in maybe 3-5mph too fast over the threshold - no biggie to correct on a long runway, but I should have gone around immediately at that particular field.  Instead I floated, and the runway disappeared behind me quickly while the anxiety increased.  I probably did try to force it on  after burning up half the runway, causing an inevitable bounce, then a second one.  Had I gone around at that point, I might have been doomed to hit the trees or pitch up excessively to avoid them and stall/spin.  Luckily, the plane settled after the second bounce - I then braked hard and stopped with 50 or so feet to spare. I feel very lucky to have gotten away with just a flat spot on one tire.  

I really do think it's helpful to imagine the go around as the default action before reaching the threshold for a short or unfamiliar runway +/- challenging surrounding terrain - I decide to land if everything is perfect upon reaching the threshold, and then I stick to the decision. That mindset has made me go around many times without feeling much stress while doing so. If one waits until there's not much runway left, it's a stressful situation that can lead to fatal errors even if the go around was still technically feasible from that position.   I don't know if that's what happened in this tragedy in Ontario, but it does fit the general circumstances.  It could easily have been me that day at 69N.  

Edited September 25, 2021 by DXB

[light_chop]

I found a video my wife took in 2020 of me taking off from the now paved runway in Sundridge South River. Maybe this can add some context to this accident.

This was a soft-field TO and once in ground effect I got startled by the trees that were coming closer quickly. You can see me trying to raise the nose to get out of ground effect a bit too early.

 

[DXB]

14 hours ago, light_chop said:

I found a video my wife took in 2020 of me taking off from the now paved runway in Sundridge South River. Maybe this can add some context to this accident.

This was a soft-field TO and once in ground effect I got startled by the trees that were coming closer quickly. You can see me trying to raise the nose to get out of ground effect a bit too early.

 

Interesting video - not a ton of room for error there, particularly for a late go around.  And the anxiety provoked by those trees requires some forethought and discipline to overcome the premature urge to climb.  

[Yetti]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:45 PM, light_chop said:

I found a video my wife took in 2020 of me taking off from the now paved runway in Sundridge South River. Maybe this can add some context to this accident.

This was a soft-field TO and once in ground effect I got startled by the trees that were coming closer quickly. You can see me trying to raise the nose to get out of ground effect a bit too early.

 

Seems like throttle full and a bit of the hold the brakes would have been a better start.  Plane off the ground and gear up dip the nose slightly to gain speed.   Then point up.   If you do this on every take off, then on the sketchy ones it is just habit.   It's hard when there are trees at the end, not to just pull up.

[Blue on Top]

A very tragic event that we can all learn from.  Thoughts and prayers to the families.

89% of fatalities in the pattern happen during takeoff and go-around (only 11% on landing ... base to final).  This thread has done a good job of pointing to the reasons.  On go-around, the forces in Mooney aircraft are high ~40 lbs. (similar to a Cessna).  Full power departures are not required in the certification process ... only 75% power is required for this exact reason.  Power on stalls are typically tested at 5,000 feet where recovery from a stall/spin/spiral is more probable.  P-factor is very high at low airspeed and high power (higher thrust, too).  Be safe.

Everyone should practice go-arounds ... at altitude first.  The first one will have a startle factor.    

[jetdriven]

If the airplane is trimmed for landing speed, the go-around is easily managed yoke force.    If you roll on the trim in the flare until it hits the up stop, it will be a lot more force.   

[Guest]

A bit of info on the airport for some context.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

If the airplane is trimmed for landing speed, the go-around is easily managed yoke force.    If you roll on the trim in the flare until it hits the up stop, it will be a lot more force.   

You know today I was out OFO and did a go-around for practice, full flap and of course gear down, then leaving gear and flap down, went to full throttle and it wasn’t any big deal at all, no excessive pitch force. but then I don’t trim in the flare, why would you? I trained in aircraft without electric trim, didn’t most?

A C-210 is orders of magnitude heavier on the controls in pitch than a Mooney for instance.

Aircraft climbed fine and I brought the gear and flaps up, there was more pitch force from bringing flaps up than from adding power in the go-around.

Guys go out and try it, trim the aircraft for about 70 to 80 kts and leave trim alone, it’s not bad at all.

[light_chop]

On 10/1/2021 at 7:46 AM, Yetti said:

It's hard when there are trees at the end, not to just pull up.

I find the urge to pull can be quite overpowering when racing towards a treeline with 70 mph, and that's even while being calm and prepared for it and you know what's coming. Now when more than half the runway is behind you already, then attempting a go-around, and you're looking at 50' trees... I imagine this can be very hard to maintain enough discipline to keep the nose down.

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by light_chop

[Hank]

One eye out the windshield, one eye on airspeed, pitch for Vx when able. Then again, I was based at an obstructed 3000' field for my first seven years, it creates strong habit patterns.

[A64Pilot]

On 9/24/2021 at 5:57 AM, ArtVandelay said:

If I bounce, I level off to regain control and try again, usually berating myself in the process.

Anyone have tailwheel experience? On a wheel landing if you bounce, then just pull the yoke further aft and turn it into a three point landing, pull slowly to keep from ballooning, if you balloon, then best be quick on the throttle because it’s going to be ugly if you don’t.

The same thing works with nose draggers too, unless of course you bounce with the yoke fully aft, which is unusual, most don’t land with the yoke pulled to the stops.

Anyone who ever flies into airports and lands where the big boys are landing or taking off had best be prepared for wake turbulence to turn a perfect approach into first ballooning then lift disappearing, parallel runways seem to be the worst.

In other words practice go-arounds in landing configuration until they don’t worry you, eventually everyone has to go-around, sometimes it’s not your fault.

[carusoam]

Notes regarding yoke forces and go arounds…

1) Full flap landings trimmed anywhere near 70ias uses up a lot of trim…

2) Two people in the front seat, also adds to the amount of trim used…

3) Adding power for the GA… is when you notice how much trim is actually in there…

4) If you go full power with the flaps down and trim in… this is where the yoke forces become pretty high…

5) In most cases… full power is not required for a successful GA…

6) In the case of trees getting larger in the windshield… pressing 40Lbs using one hand, while trimming with the other… may have to wait…

7) +1 for getting practice with GAs…. And practice with short fields…

8) keep your eye on the ASI… and don’t let the stall horn continue to sound…

It’s a terrible loss… and something to learn from…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

On 10/4/2021 at 2:56 PM, A64Pilot said:

Anyone have tailwheel experience? On a wheel landing if you bounce, then just pull the yoke further aft and turn it into a three point landing, pull slowly to keep from ballooning, if you balloon, then best be quick on the throttle because it’s going to be ugly if you don’t.

The same thing works with nose draggers too, unless of course you bounce with the yoke fully aft, which is unusual, most don’t land with the yoke pulled to the stops.

Anyone who ever flies into airports and lands where the big boys are landing or taking off had best be prepared for wake turbulence to turn a perfect approach into first ballooning then lift disappearing, parallel runways seem to be the worst.

In other words practice go-arounds in landing configuration until they don’t worry you, eventually everyone has to go-around, sometimes it’s not your fault.

I was taught to three point my RV4 every time, I’ve never wheel landed it in 500 hours.  If you have enough speed for a wheel landing you’re going too fast.

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

14 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I was taught to three point my RV4 every time, I’ve never wheel landed it in 500 hours.  If you have enough speed for a wheel landing you’re going too fast.

Clarence

That’s one theory, and it differers by aircraft, I’ve been told you three point a DC-3 once for instance.

However it’s my opinion that you should be comfortable landing an aircraft in every way it can be, to include on one main, which is probably the best way to land in a strong cross wind. 

I prefer wheelies as it gives me more control, is easier to go around from and it can always be turned into a three point if you desire.

My preference is a tail low wheelie that right after touchdown you bring the tail up to level.

I did a quick Google as I’ve not flown Van’s aircraft and while I’ve seen a great many wheel land, maybe something was unusual about them. and found this

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/march/07/everything-youve-been-taught-about-wheel-landings-is-wrong

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by A64Pilot

[1980Mooney]

On 10/3/2021 at 6:39 PM, jetdriven said:

If the airplane is trimmed for landing speed, the go-around is easily managed yoke force.    If you roll on the trim in the flare until it hits the up stop, it will be a lot more force.   

Spot on.

On 10/4/2021 at 1:56 PM, A64Pilot said:

Anyone who ever flies into airports and lands where the big boys are landing or taking off had best be prepared for wake turbulence to turn a perfect approach into first ballooning then lift disappearing, parallel runways seem to be the worst.

In other words practice go-arounds in landing configuration until they don’t worry you, eventually everyone has to go-around, sometimes it’s not your fault.

Exactly

On 10/3/2021 at 12:20 PM, Blue on Top said:

Everyone should practice go-arounds ... at altitude first.  The first one will have a startle factor.    

This is why you should practice Touch & Goes frequently - half flaps, full flaps, no flaps.  You won't be startled.  You won't be running the trim rapidly down and up.  If landing full flaps you will get comfortable with quickly pulling out a bit of flap rather than fighting the yoke or trim.

[Shadrach]

On 10/6/2021 at 9:32 AM, A64Pilot said:

That’s one theory, and it differers by aircraft, I’ve been told you three point a DC-3 once for instance.

However it’s my opinion that you should be comfortable landing an aircraft in every way it can be, to include on one main, which is probably the best way to land in a strong cross wind. 

I prefer wheelies as it gives me more control, is easier to go around from and it can always be turned into a three point if you desire.

My preference is a tail low wheelie that right after touchdown you bring the tail up to level.

I did a quick Google as I’ve not flown Van’s aircraft and while I’ve seen a great many wheel land, maybe something was unusual about them. and found this

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/march/07/everything-youve-been-taught-about-wheel-landings-is-wrong

 

I prefer wheelies as well.  They took me a while to figure out because when I bounced the first few, the instructor said "the plane won't bounce if it's not flying" . I asked him to confirm that to stall the mains on while simultaneously holding the tail off.  As you might imagine, that was a real challenge for a newby TD pilot working with spring steel gear.  It took several near 3pt plops before I eventually figured that the way to wheel land is to roll the mains on at a speed that is slow but still fast enough to give adequate pitch authority for a gentle main gear roll on and a touch of downward pitch to keep the mains planted as you transition from flying to lowering the tail and driving.  As I got better, wheelie touchdowns got slower but they were the full stall variety I shoot for in the Mooney. If they were, they would all be 3 pointers. 

[Shadrach]

On 10/3/2021 at 1:20 PM, Blue on Top said:

A very tragic event that we can all learn from.  Thoughts and prayers to the families.

89% of fatalities in the pattern happen during takeoff and go-around (only 11% on landing ... base to final).  This thread has done a good job of pointing to the reasons.  On go-around, the forces in Mooney aircraft are high ~40 lbs. (similar to a Cessna).  Full power departures are not required in the certification process ... only 75% power is required for this exact reason.  Power on stalls are typically tested at 5,000 feet where recovery from a stall/spin/spiral is more probable.  P-factor is very high at low airspeed and high power (higher thrust, too).  Be safe.

Everyone should practice go-arounds ... at altitude first.  The first one will have a startle factor.    

With all due respect, one of us needs to re-calibrate our arms. I allow for the possibility that it may be me given your credentials and experience with Mooney aircraft. With that being said, I have no recollection of flying any aircraft with 40lb control forces. I have done hundreds Touch and goes and go arounds in the Mooney in every possible configuration. I have never felt like the airplane with some sort of beast to get under control. Certainly the  controls require additional effort in pitch but 40 pounds seems like a lot. What are the certification requirements?

[carusoam]

The most yoke forces I have found….

Go around…. With Full flaps down, and trimmed for landing… and excess power selected….

Requires two arms to hold the yoke forwards… making it a challenge to hold the yoke forwards and manually trim.

Unknowingly Unleashing a full 310hp under these conditions will require thought and experience…

Kind of a bench press…. Using some stronger muscles…

 

I imagine… if the electric trim were to run forwards unnoticed… holding the yoke back is going to be an armful…. While re-trimming, and re configuring…  (find the loss of Marvin K Mooney, the plane… runaway trim and a two person crew… the crew is still with us, but Marvin didn’t do so well….)

Kind of an arm curl and Row combination… Using some of the not so strong muscles….

 

It will always be educational to know… flap, trim and throttle status during a T/O and/or GA accident…

PP thoughts only, not a body builder or gym rat…

Best regards,

-a-

[Blue on Top]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

What are the certification requirements?

(c) If marginal conditions exist with regard to required pilot strength, the control forces necessary must be determined by quantitative tests. In no case may the control forces under the conditions specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section exceed those prescribed in the following table:

Values in pounds force applied to the relevant control	Pitch	Roll	Yaw
(a) For temporary application:
Stick-----------------------------------------------	60	30	--------------------------
Wheel (Two hands on rim)---------------- Wheel (One hand on rim)-----------------	75 50	50 25	-------------------------- -------------------------
Rudder Pedal------------------------------------	--------------------------	Wher

The outright answer is 50 lbs.  This value is to NOT re-trim and to NOT reconfigure the airplane during the go-around.  It's the regulation/law.  Sometimes the regulations are real world and sometimes they are not.  We (ASTM, writing regulatory compliance) are looking at the possibility of lowering these values, but that is very complicated and a BIG deal.  Here's a couple examples.

Many pilots want an airplane to fly with light controls, but the regulations require the airplane cannot be over-Ged with less than 50 lbs. of control force.  That works out to about 13 lbs. per G in pitch force.  For multi-engine airplanes at the slow end, Vmc is based on 150 lbs. of rudder force, but can the pilot exert 150 lbs. on the rudder at Vne and not break or lose control of the airplane. 

Bottom line:  It's not that simple.   It's hard to design an airplane for the 5% female and the 95% male.   

[Blue on Top]

29 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

What are the certification requirements?

We can also require an airplane to have auto-trim, a (no) takeoff system, etc., but now the pilot has to recognize what the airplane and/or its systems are doing versus what a failed system is doing all on its own.  I wish it were easy ... it's not.

[A64Pilot]

People have different opinions of what trimmed for landing means. to some it means trimmed either fully up or trim to a a stall whichever occurs first.

Ray Maule used to teach people to land their Maule's that way, to roll the trim full up to the stops, Idea is I’m sure that a full stall landing gives shortest landing distances and of course that’s something Maule wants to showcase.

However a Go-around in a Maule with the trim rolled full up, requires an insane amount of pressure to prevent a zoom climb and stall, and is simply unsafe in my opinion.

It’s just foolish to trim full up or trim so that a stall landing requires no or almost no back pressure in any airplane, your putting yourself into a position to where level flight or a moderate climb is exceedingly difficult and you shouldn’t.

I can understand why someone might do it in a C-210 as it’s about the heaviest control force of any airplane I’ve ever flown, not as bad a a B-25, but way more than a Mooney.

A Mooney’s control forces are light enough that there is no need to trim up fully.

We go full in on the prop and full rich so that we are in a position to immediately abandon the approach just by adding throttle. don’t put yourself in a position to where your not ready to abandon it just by applying full throttle.

Just an opinion of course.

Edited October 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Hank]

I trim for hands-off descent on final. The flare is done by pulling on the yoke. Go around are not a problem. 

[Blue on Top]

On 10/8/2021 at 2:53 PM, Shadrach said:

With all due respect, one of us needs to re-calibrate our arms. I allow for the possibility that it may be me given your credentials and experience with Mooney aircraft. With that being said, I have no recollection of flying any aircraft with 40lb control forces. I have done hundreds Touch and goes and go arounds in the Mooney in every possible configuration. I have never felt like the airplane with some sort of beast to get under control. Certainly the  controls require additional effort in pitch but 40 pounds seems like a lot. What are the certification requirements?

@Shadrach  Not disagreeing with you at all.  All pilots don't fly (in this case trim) the same way.  Neither way is right or wrong.

A Mooney (and early Cessna 180/182) have very powerful, trimmable stabilizers.  The wing produces more nose down pitching moment at higher AOAs (lower airspeeds) and more yet with flap deployment.  The tail must counteract this nose down pitching moment by producing an equal nose up pitching moment.  In a Mooney, this can be accomplished one of two ways (or a combination of the two).  One way is through trimming (using the horizontal stabilizer).  The other way is through pulling back on the yoke (elevator trailing edge up).  Moving the trim (stabilizer) results in no pilot force; moving the elevator results in a lot of pilot force.  I'll try to put this in perspective with trim and stall.

I believe that one of the Mooney production flight test specs is to be able to trim the airplane down to 1.15Vs at the highest forward-regardless CG (top of the left side vertical line on the weight and balance envelope ... lower, left side of the graph).  It takes very little elevator to stall the airplane.  As the CG of the airplane moves aft (same weight), the airplane will stall just with stabilizer down force ... no elevator required.  On the other hand and if we trim the airplane to 1.5Vs (current stall regulation), at forward CG (the sloped line on the upper part of the left side), there may not be enough elevator to stall the airplane (and it would require a lot of pull force on the yoke). 

What you're saying about the go-around forces are true for you, as .you are not trimming as far into the landing.  On the other hand, those who have been taught to always trim away all the forces will have a lot of push force required for a go-around (resulting in many fatalities).

Neither operation of the airplane is right or wrong.  The pilot just needs to be aware of the situation/configuration.

 

PS. If I disagree with someone here, I will either not reply or ask them a question that will either lead them to my thoughts or they will teach me.  I am ALWAYS learning.  MSers are great!

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

@Shadrach  Not disagreeing with you at all.  All pilots don't fly (in this case trim) the same way.  Neither way is right or wrong.

A Mooney (and early Cessna 180/182) have very powerful, trimmable stabilizers.  The wing produces more nose down pitching moment at higher AOAs (lower airspeeds) and more yet with flap deployment.  The tail must counteract this nose down pitching moment by producing an equal nose up pitching moment.  In a Mooney, this can be accomplished one of two ways (or a combination of the two).  One way is through trimming (using the horizontal stabilizer).  The other way is through pulling back on the yoke (elevator trailing edge up).  Moving the trim (stabilizer) results in no pilot force; moving the elevator results in a lot of pilot force.  I'll try to put this in perspective with trim and stall.

I believe that one of the Mooney production flight test specs is to be able to trim the airplane down to 1.15Vs at the highest forward-regardless CG (top of the left side vertical line on the weight and balance envelope ... lower, left side of the graph).  It takes very little elevator to stall the airplane.  As the CG of the airplane moves aft (same weight), the airplane will stall just with stabilizer down force ... no elevator required.  On the other hand and if we trim the airplane to 1.5Vs (current stall regulation), at forward CG (the sloped line on the upper part of the left side), there may not be enough elevator to stall the airplane (and it would require a lot of pull force on the yoke). 

What you're saying about the go-around forces are true for you, as .you are not trimming as far into the landing.  On the other hand, those who have been taught to always trim away all the forces will have a lot of push force required for a go-around (resulting in many fatalities).

Neither operation of the airplane is right or wrong.  The pilot just needs to be aware of the situation/configuration.

 

PS. If I disagree with someone here, I will either not reply or ask them a question that will either lead them to my thoughts or they will teach me.  I am ALWAYS learning.  MSers are great!

I appreciate the thoughtful reply.  Just to be clear.  I am almost always trimmed full or nearly full nose up trim before the flare.  I fly a mid body (and a fairly light one at that) that is typically between 2000 and 2350lbs with just me on board.  I have perhaps desensitized myself to pitch forces from doing so many over T and Gs and go arounds over the years...I haven't practiced go arounds in months, so now I have a good reason to go out and recalibrate my arms.