Rain Mooney

[bnicolette]

Quote: jetdriven

That is assuming that you could maintain VMC conditions on top for the whole flight, there is no icing in the clouds on the way down, and that suitable minimums exist to land below.  Thats is a lot of "if's".

[Cruiser]

[Posted Jan 15, 2012 2:44 PM

If the temperature aloft is forecast to be between 5C and -40C in visible moisture, thats icing conditions.  I don't get it why someone would fly a non-deiced airplane in that.]

because in Houston, Tx it is probably not forecast that often, in the Midwest, it is normal from November to April. If you want to fly during the winter you need to be more discriminating with respect to weather.

[Cruiser]

Quote: jetdriven

Still if you are flying in clouds between 0 and -40C, you are techincally "in" known icing conditions.

from: http://www.ifr-magazine.com/defining_known_ice_certification_faa_ifr.html

(What do you think)

In explaining their definition of known ice, Loretta E. Alkalay, FAA Regional Counsel, referenced Administrator v. Curtis, NTSB Order No. EA-5154 (April 29, 2005). Here, the court ruled that conditions conducive to icing exists whenever near- or below-freezing temperatures and moisture exist together in a given area. It didn't matter that there were no reports or forecasts of icing conditions at any altitude anywhere near the route of flight.

The Regional Counsel's office also referenced Administrator v. Groszer, NTSB Order No. EA-3770 (January 5, 1993), which ruled that the threat of ice need not cover the entire area at all altitudes for the threat to be known or dangerous.

In short, the FAA defines known ice as any visible moisture (cloud or limiting visibility due to moisture) with temperatures at or near freezing. If you go there in a non-known-ice-certified aircraft, you are in violation. Period.

...................

The Regional Counsel's letter to me clarified the definition of known ice. You cannot legally fly a non-known-ice-certified airplane into any cloud near or below zero degrees C or you are in violation. If the FAA learns, either by direct observation or via a filed complaint, that a non-known-ice-certified aircraft entered a freezing cloud, it will initiate the EDT process and an enforcement may, or may not, result.

[bnicolette]

I couldnt agree more with the following statement:

Winter flying, even in sub-freezing clouds, can be as safe as operating during the balmy days of July - IF we know what we're doing. Basic to all of this is having a solid gold "backdoor" to escape through whenever airframe icing is encountered.

[rob]

Quote: jetdriven

If the temperature aloft is forecast to be between 5C and -40C in visible moisture, thats icing conditions.  I don't get it why someone would fly a non-deiced airplane in that.

[AndyFromCB]

Quote: rob

 

Seems like this comes up every year on all sorts of aviation forums, doesn't it? I agree with your sentiment.

[M016576]

Quote: jetdriven

That is assuming that you could maintain VMC conditions on top for the whole flight, there is no icing in the clouds on the way down, and that suitable minimums exist to land below.  Thats is a lot of "if's".

[DaV8or]

Quote: Cruiser

The new letter of interpretation stresses that pilots should have the necessary weather knowledge to make sound flight planning decisions.

[AndyFromCB]

Quote: DaV8or

Wow. That seems kind of vague. What constitutes "necessary weather knowledge"? How do we make go, no go decisions? A hunch? A guess? Just go up and try? If you can see cloud and OAT is telling you it's freezing outside, how do you know if you'll get ice or not?

[jetdriven]

I have 3000 hours in the 1900D and I could never predict when I would get ice and when I would not. Sometimes between PIT and Watertown we were clean. Then moderate to Massena.   The worst I ever had was in Kingman AZ one night.  We would get about 3/4 inch of ice between boot cycles, and that is 45 seconds.  I didn't get a weather report for "severe" icing.  SO it may be legal in a M20J, but there would only be one outcome.

[Rocket_Driver]

Quote: 201er

What about damage to paint, glass, etc? Rain horizontal speed: 0, Mooney horizontal speed: 180+mph...

[231flyer]

I have seen noticable paint erosion on the leading edge of my 231 after flying through rain over a period of time.....nothing immediate though.  I have also seen some paint erosion on the prop blades in my Mirage (composite prop).  Early in my career, I used to program robots to assemble and paint class c trucks.  Paint erosion tests (including salt sprays, road chips, etc) were part of the normal test suite for accepting new coatings.  We also used solid CO2 pellets to bead blast paint for rework.  I can see how flying thru a crystalized cloud could have a similar effect on your wings etc.

[xftrplt]

Gotta love it.  

Above, we have highly experienced military and civilian aviators warning of the risks of winter IFR and icing, especially in low-powered, S/E recips.

Then, we have someone who hasn't even had an instrument ticket for a full (and unusually mild) winter expounding on weather theory and IFR flying and blithely plowing along in icing conditions, if its only stratus.

Well, I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.

(But, with over 13,000 hours flying MD-80's in the northeast--DCA, BOS, LGA, ORD--in all sorts of weather, I know whom I'd choose.)

[rob]

Quote: xftrplt

Gotta love it.  

Above we have highly experienced military and civilian aviators warning of the risks of winter IFR and icing, especially in low-powered S/E recips.

Then we have a real expert, who hasn't even had an instrument ticket for a full winter, expounding on weather theory and IFR flying and blithely plowing along in icing conditions, if its only stratus.

Well, I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.

But, with over 13,000 hours flying MD-80's in the northeast--DCA, BOS, LGA, ORD--in all sorts of weather, I know who I'd choose.)

[fantom]

Quote: xftrplt

Gotta love it.  

Above, we have highly experienced military and civilian aviators warning of the risks of winter IFR and icing, especially in low-powered, S/E recips.

Then, we have someone who hasn't even had an instrument ticket for a full (and unusually mild) winter expounding on weather theory and IFR flying and blithely plowing along in icing conditions, if its only stratus.

Well, I guess you pays your money and takes your choice.

(But, with over 13,000 hours flying MD-80's in the northeast--DCA, BOS, LGA, ORD--in all sorts of weather, I know who I'd choose.)