TKS Question... Dead Spot

[V1VRV2]

The last 12” on the outboard section of the right wing in front of the aileron is not flowing any fluid. I just started flying the plane regularly and other than running the system in flight every 2 weeks I never did a proper preflight as prescribed in the POH. Now that I did preflight the system I noticed 12” of the panel is dry. Every other section is flowing well. After finding the deficient section I did run the system on high and had a steady green light for about 5 minutes. Still dry. I did read the supplement and understand the fluid temp/viscosity plays a part. Is it time to have a mechanic purge the system or give it more time running? Temp on the day of the preflight was 57 degrees. Please tell me your experiences.

[Little Dipper]

i don't think you have an issue.  Run it in the air while you are flying and see what happens.

[milotron]

I just ran mine yesterday for a couple of hour in the air as I had not run them in awhile. It took some time, but all of the panels were wet. Some areas definitely took over an hour to soak out.

 

The tail/rudder was the last to wet on mine.

[mike_elliott]

David, clean it well with 100 LL, then go fly thru some clouds with it on for a bit.

[StevenL757]

8 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

The last 12” on the outboard section of the right wing in front of the aileron is not flowing any fluid. I just started flying the plane regularly and other than running the system in flight every 2 weeks I never did a proper preflight as prescribed in the POH. Now that I did preflight the system I noticed 12” of the panel is dry. Every other section is flowing well. After finding the deficient section I did run the system on high and had a steady green light for about 5 minutes. Still dry. I did read the supplement and understand the fluid temp/viscosity plays a part. Is it time to have a mechanic purge the system or give it more time running? Temp on the day of the preflight was 57 degrees. Please tell me your experiences.

Full wetting of all panels on the ground depends on several things...

• OAT - Typically, the panels do not soak uniformly during warmer weather...the fluid will pool down to the wing or horizontal stabilizer roots.  This doesn't indicate a problem per se; only that the temp is too warm for the fluid to disperse all the way across the full length of a particular panel
• Days or weeks since the last test - Every 30 days is the guideline CAV uses
• How long you run the system - I usually run mine at least long enough to push 4 to 5 gallons through the system, and then I refill with fresh fluid.  This could take about an hour
• Which mode you're running (Anti-ice or De-ice) - Run each mode an equal amount of time, and also alternate between Pumps 1 and 2.  Also run the two windscreen anti-ice pumps a couple of times each as well to ensure the windscreen spray bar is functioning

Steve

[carusoam]

Great TKS details gents!

Apparently, it is good to refresh the fluid throughout the system, just by running it every now and then...

Better in the air, than on the ground... because the stuff on the floor is extra slippery...

TKS fluid is pretty interesting... it can sort of dry out, and change viscosity after that... it usually wets out again with a little effort as described above...

We have a TKS guy and a CAV guy around here... if needed. 

PP thoughts only, not a TKS user...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

Don’t use any solvents or chemicals for cleaning your TKS panels.  For localized dry spots use a paper towel soaked in TKS fluid and rub the dry spots to re wet the internal membrane.  If normal flow isn’t restored you may have to connect a pressure pot with fluid to the back of the panel to re wet it.

Clarence

 

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Don’t use any solvents or chemicals for cleaning your TKS panels.  For localized dry spots use a paper towel soaked in TKS fluid and rub the dry spots to re wet the internal membrane.  If normal flow isn’t restored you may have to connect a pressure pot with fluid to the back of the panel to re wet it.

Clarence

 

Yep, exactly why I said to clean it well with 100LL. I have read this page before

[aviatoreb]

53 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Yep, exactly why I said to clean it well with 100LL. I have read this page before

Hi Mike,  Can you say more what you mean clean with 100LL?  How one does that.

I have occasionally had the same problem - and I do right now - one panel on my horizontal tail is not wetting because darn I guess I ran it just a little too little over the summer.

I always do a full-wet ground test in the fall just to see them all whet up.  Its useless to do a ground test in the summer since the fluid is too liquid and doesn't flow the same way as it does when its cold.  So in the summer I only wet it occasionally in flight.

Usually if I run a few gallons through on the ground it all expresses eventually - and I help it along with a rag that I get all wetted in tks fluid rubbing the non wetted panel.  Are you saying to do the same thing - wet a rag with 100LL and rub it on the panel?  That isn't going to corrosive on the tubes and sponges on the other side?

[exM20K]

Flow problems are unlikely to come from surface contamination. Fluid pressure will clear the holes most of the time. Individual dry panels are more likely a result of a dried out membrane or a bad proportioning valve.

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, exM20K said:

Flow problems are unlikely to come from surface contamination. Fluid pressure will clear the holes most of the time. Individual dry panels are more likely a result of a dried out membrane or a bad proportioning valve.

Nonetheless, the idea is that whetting the outside of the panels may well draw a little fluid to the material below to help moisten it up sponges below to allow the fluid to flow - so is the hope.

[Parker_Woodruff]

17 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

The last 12” on the outboard section of the right wing in front of the aileron is not flowing any fluid. I just started flying the plane regularly and other than running the system in flight every 2 weeks I never did a proper preflight as prescribed in the POH. Now that I did preflight the system I noticed 12” of the panel is dry. Every other section is flowing well. After finding the deficient section I did run the system on high and had a steady green light for about 5 minutes. Still dry. I did read the supplement and understand the fluid temp/viscosity plays a part. Is it time to have a mechanic purge the system or give it more time running? Temp on the day of the preflight was 57 degrees. Please tell me your experiences.

I recently flew a Mooney on which the TKS had a few segments not giving any flow, likely due to non-use.  In flight on a nice clear day, running on high for about 10 minutes, the problem cleared itself.

[V1VRV2]

Thank for the info! I arrived at my plane this afternoon for a flight from PBG-TEB-PBG. There was a good amount of icing forecast so I preflighted the system and found that the panel wetted out another 3-4” after running the system on previous days. Progress was being made. Moderate rime icing was forecast for a good amount of the flight. When we got to cruise we were in moderate rime icing. I got the system on and ran it at max. The entire wing was ice free. When I got on the ground at TEB I preflighted the system again before departing and the entire length of all panels was now putting out fluid. 100% functional. Going to work on keeping the membranes wet. 

This was my first experience with TKS in icing conditions. I’m 100% satisfied with the performance. Amazing system. It gives a recip the dispatch capability of a business jet. Love it!

[carusoam]

Welcome to NJ!

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

Welcome to NJ!

Best regards,

-a-

It means something else in NJ when you hear someone say "he got iced"

[CAV Ice]

Glad you got it working!!!  Any future troubleshooting issues feel free to PM me and I'll send you my email and phone number.

[aviatoreb]

11 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

Thank for the info! I arrived at my plane this afternoon for a flight from PBG-TEB-PBG. There was a good amount of icing forecast so I preflighted the system and found that the panel wetted out another 3-4” after running the system on previous days. Progress was being made. Moderate rime icing was forecast for a good amount of the flight. When we got to cruise we were in moderate rime icing. I got the system on and ran it at max. The entire wing was ice free. When I got on the ground at TEB I preflighted the system again before departing and the entire length of all panels was now putting out fluid. 100% functional. Going to work on keeping the membranes wet. 

This was my first experience with TKS in icing conditions. I’m 100% satisfied with the performance. Amazing system. It gives a recip the dispatch capability of a business jet. Love it!

You know. KPTD is also in "North Country NY".  Are you based at KPBG?

I was at Wilmington just this summer with my son as we rode bikes up white face.

E

[V1VRV2]

Yes... Im based at PBG. I live in Wilmington. I think we PM’d recently? Before I bought my plane maybe. It’s all a blur to me.. the last few months. So consumed with everything that goes alonG with an aircraft purchase. Forgive me if Im wrong.

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

Yes... Im based at PBG. I live in Wilmington. I think we PM’d recently? Before I bought my plane maybe. It’s all a blur to me.. the last few months. So consumed with everything that goes alonG with an aircraft purchase. Forgive me if Im wrong.

You are right!  Yay for your new plane!

[thinwing]

On 11/22/2020 at 8:33 AM, mike_elliott said:

David, clean it well with 100 LL, then go fly thru some clouds with it on for a bit.

not sure about this advice...the 100 ll is a great solvent but if it soaks into interior spongy reservoir ,will it damage it...I would start with TKS fluid as your solvent...in case someone waxed up the pores 

[mike_elliott]

11 hours ago, thinwing said:

not sure about this advice...the 100 ll is a great solvent but if it soaks into interior spongy reservoir ,will it damage it...I would start with TKS fluid as your solvent...in case someone waxed up the pores 

I am, it is straight from the mfrg and from Mooney. See Clarence's post above referencing the manual.

[CAV Ice]

6. Only the following solvents are authorized for cleaning
the leading edge panels:
Water (with soap/detergent)
Approved De-Icing Fluid (see 3.)

            -TKS 80
            -AL-5 (DTD 406B)
            -TKS R328
Aviation Gasoline
Isopropyl Alcohol
Ethyl Alcohol
Industrial Methylated Spirit

[aviatoreb]

15 minutes ago, CAV Ice said:

6. Only the following solvents are authorized for cleaning
the leading edge panels:
Water (with soap/detergent)
Approved De-Icing Fluid (see 3.)

            -TKS 80
            -AL-5 (DTD 406B)
            -TKS R328
Aviation Gasoline
Isopropyl Alcohol
Ethyl Alcohol
Industrial Methylated Spirit

Thanks - that was very useful.

Of those which do you figure is most aggressive or best for the purpose we are discussing here, which is to encourage a slightly plugged panel to come back to life.

E

[CAV Ice]

I would recommend TKS fluid with a lint free cloth as it can get into the porous membrane and tends to pull fluid to the surface.  I've had success wiping the leading edge while running the system to pull fluid out of dead spots.  If all else fails, we do have a purge procedure that isolates individual panels.  If solvent has damaged the porous membrane you will know it.  Fluid will typically squirt out of the panel 3-6 inches like a shower from the solvent damaged area. 

[carusoam]

Great details CAV!

Thanks for sharing them all...

Best regards,

-a-