So long

[OHAEDO]

I had Retrix do the same thing to me a few months ago. They also told me to screw off.
Why did the engine need to be redone?

Good day. The engine didn’t have to be re-done per se. But new airplane with less than 15 hours!!! So I sent it to Mooney to get it back new and that’s what I did.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tim Jodice]

What does damage like that do to the resale value? Sounds like it was handled with perfection, everything and then some that was affected was replaced by the factory.

I am guessing I am the exception but if I was in the market for an Acclaim I wouldn't care.

[OHAEDO]

If there are 2 of them - would you pay the same for the one who had a problem?  Perfectly fixed or not?

[Tim Jodice]

If they were identical in every way I suppose, I would think in the real world there would be something different to be the deal breaker. Hours, interior, paint color, options etc.

Or a big one in your favor would be availability. Yours next to a picture on a computer of one the will be built in 6 months and I want it now.

Based on the way you handled the situation I would bet that an inspection by the very best Mooney person wouldn't be able to tell that anything happened. 

Like many things for me I am the exception. What does a damage history like that do to it's value?

[aviatoreb]

19 minutes ago, airtim said:

What does damage like that do to the resale value? Sounds like it was handled with perfection, everything and then some that was affected was replaced by the factory.

I am guessing I am the exception but if I was in the market for an Acclaim I wouldn't care.

I tend to agree with the poster.  If I were spending 700k or 800k on a new airplane or rather almost new airplane and I could choose from something never damaged or something lightly damaged and well repaired I would choose the former.  Unless there was some price difference in which case, yeah I would consider the lightly damaged but well repaired airplane for some price difference.  I would be picky because I could. In that high end price range.

But by the time the prices get a lot lower on older airplanes and we are talking 100 to 200k then well repaired is all I require.

Edited June 6, 2020 by aviatoreb

[OHAEDO]

In my particular case - I had a BRAND NEW airplane that they ruined.  So the hit is HUGE.  I've consulted experts and that's the word.  HOW much is an art an in the eyes of the buyer.  but it's in the 10-25% range depending on how long since the accident.  That's according to several expert witnesses we've consulted.  Hope this helps.  

[mike_elliott]

Dont forget the rental car in KOCF that could also be attributed....

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, OHAEDO said:

In my particular case - I had a BRAND NEW airplane that they ruined.  So the hit is HUGE.  I've consulted experts and that's the word.  HOW much is an art an in the eyes of the buyer.  but it's in the 10-25% range depending on how long since the accident.  That's according to several expert witnesses we've consulted.  Hope this helps.  

I agree.  I think of what they say - a new car looses a significant amount of monetary value as soon as you drive it off the lot.  I would not pay a new car price for a car with 2000 miles on it purchased form an individual, or even from a dealer.  And that is why...I usually don't buy new cars but I like to buy lightly used cars from dealers that people trade in and we have purchased 2 different used cars with under 3000 miles on them in the last 4 years - because I save a lot of money on a lightly used car.  In that spirit if a car has any damage history I would consider it only if the price reflects it.

One buys a new airplane just like a new car, because you feel special and you deserve it!  No matter how well it is repaired mechanically, it no longer has that new car/airplane panache.  I mean if I am a buyer.  If I had 750k to buy a new mooney and one is 50 hours and the owner just changed his/her mind and the other is 50 hours and had any kind of damage and repair, that would definitely cross my mind.  It is not a reasonable decision it is an emotional thing - one buys brand spanking new not for reasonable reasons but for emotional reasons - you feel special and you deserve it!  I would only consider it if the price reflects the change of the situation.

I couldn't afford new and I bought a much cheaper used 1981 airplane which I love very much.  Knock on wood, no damage history (knock on wood to keep it that way!) but in this price range, if it is a well documented and skillful repair I would definitely consider it.

Edited June 6, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Tim Jodice]

As much as $200,000. I think that is insane. It is not like the market is flooded with new 2 door Mooneys.

I was pissed when mine was down for a week and $2500 out of my pocket. It wasn't enough for me to spend time going after them. Small claims court at best. $200,000 buys alot of legal services. 

[OHAEDO]

Agree aviatoreb!  There's emotions on the other side of this as well.  My wife doesn't say it out loud but she thinks bad thoughts of the mishap and what not and doesn't go on it unless cajoled.  

In the end - who needs the aggravation and headache and painful memories.

I personally loved my airplane and Mooney did a great job fixing it to brand new spec.  But - the toil and tribulation those people at Signature have put us through over their own actions and still having to deal with it 14 months later is enough for me. 

All the best

[thinwing]

So the TBM 910 should make you feel better...

[Bravoman]

On 6/6/2020 at 12:59 PM, airtim said:

As much as $200,000. I think that is insane. It is not like the market is flooded with new 2 door Mooneys.

I was pissed when mine was down for a week and $2500 out of my pocket. It wasn't enough for me to spend time going after them. Small claims court at best. $200,000 buys alot of legal services. 

 On a brand new $750,000 plus aircraft there is no question that the diminution in value for the damage described by the OP would be in the six figures. By way of comparison, I had a client who had a brand new Mercedes 600 which at the time was about $135,000. He was rear-ended after owning it for a few days and the cost of the repairs was something over $30,000. The insurance carrier for the at fault party paid that and an additional $42,000 for the value diminution. 

[OHAEDO]

4 hours ago, Bravoman said:

 On a brand new $750,000 plus aircraft there is no question that the diminution in value for the damage described by the OP would be in the six figures. By way of comparison, I had a client who had a brand new Mercedes 600 which at the time was about $135,000. He was rear-ended after owning it for a few days and the cost of the repairs was something over $30,000. The insurance carrier for the at fault party paid that and an additional $42,000 for the value diminution. 

Thank you Bravoman.  Yes - that's the horrific situation I find myself in.  All the best.

[MIm20c]

I feel really bad for your situation. Honestly though, buying a new Mooney is a terrible investment. Damage or not I’d take at least 150k off the price of new one. The damage might make a slight difference but the first flight from the factory is the big hit. Good luck though, not a big fan of the lux fbo’s anyway.

[OHAEDO]

Just now, MIm20c said:

I feel really bad for your situation. Honestly though, buying a new Mooney is a terrible investment. Damage or not I’d take at least 150k off the price of new one. The damage might make a slight difference but the first flight from the factory is the big hit. Good luck though, not a big fan of the lux fbo’s anyway.

Thank you MLC20c - everyone's situation is different.  For me - great plane - gets my 950NM mission done for work.  Can get home.  4.3mm miles on AA - done with that.  Happy to take the 3 yr normal hit as from an accounting and business standpoint makes sense.

The horror here is someone creating havoc and ruining the new plane.  So back to AA - loss of use and productivity - loss of value.  It's the proverbial crap show and they need to be held to account.

 

All the best to you.

[MIm20c]

3 minutes ago, OHAEDO said:

The horror here is someone creating havoc and ruining the new plane.  So back to AA - loss of use and productivity - loss of value.  It's the proverbial crap show and they need to be held to account.

 

All the best to you.

This I completely agree with, time lost dealing with the BS!

There have been a few times over the last 20 years where we have lost 6 plus months flying because someone didn’t do their job correctly. Really inconvenient on a 3 year old plane...a new plane it would be that much more painful. Out of all the planes available the 910 holds top position on my wish list, great choice!

[OHAEDO]

Just now, MIm20c said:

This I completely agree with, time lost dealing with the BS!

There have been a few times over the last 20 years where we have lost 6 plus months flying because someone didn’t do their job correctly. Really inconvenient on a 3 year old plane...a new plane it would be that much more painful. Out of all the planes available the 910 holds top position on my wish list, great choice!

Thanks - I am doing that for sure.  The signature people have been - well - evil - no other words - imagine me taking off to Vr and the front gear goes 45 degrees on me with my family aboard.  If I ran my business with that level of gratuitous lack of deference for life I'd be living under a bridge in I-95.

[FloridaMan]

On 6/6/2020 at 8:55 AM, OHAEDO said:

Signature over torqued my front gear - plane has <15 hours.  Ferried it to Mooney - new everything from firewall forward. Basically a 7 month ordeal.  I've paid everything out of my own pocket.  Got my plane back.  Signature okayed to pay for all repairs - after lawyers and such - but balking at paying for hit on value and loss of use.  Even tho they're glaringly grossly negligent - we have a video of them using a huge tow bar on it.

It could;ve been fatal.  

That language in their hangar agreement was put in after 9/11 - who wants liability for a terrorist slamming a plane into the FBO.  Except they're using it to shield themselves when tHEY do the damage.  I can't let that stand.  They're insured for it and are being UBER D*CKS - but they're not wearing me down.  Trust me - they will pay and learn to train their staff.

Gross negligence is gross negligence. Keep us posted. In my opinion they should be ridden out on a rail for egregious price gouging and exploitation of people using ramps paid for by public funds, and that money is going to London. 

[larrynimmo]

Everytime I go to an fbi that’s handling my plane I make a point of warning the administrative and line crew about steering limits....they do not like hearing this from me...but I will not stop telling them

[cbarry]

I wonder what responsibility we have as owners/pilots to follow the POH where it states power tows are not recommended.  Should we simply instruct the FBO upon egressing the airplane that power towing is not permitted by the POH, so we’re totaling willing to park wherever...just not where the plane needs to be moved later?  It seems like most of us are unwilling to be emphatic, want to the nice and just gingerly point out the turning/towing limits to the lineman.  I believe if we took the stance that power tows are not recommended and clearly announced  this to the FBO, then we would a solid stance if they overruled us and towed it anyway and damage resulted.

[OHAEDO]

Just now, cbarry said:

I wonder what responsibility we have as owners/pilots to follow the POH where it states power tows are not recommended.  Should we simply instruct the FBO upon egressing the airplane that power towing is not permitted by the POH, so we’re totaling willing to park wherever...just not where the plane needs to be moved later?  It seems like most of us are unwilling to be emphatic, want to the nice and just gingerly point out the turning/towing limits to the lineman.  I believe if we took the stance that power tows are not recommended and clearly announced  this to the FBO, then we would a solid stance if they overruled us and towed it anyway and damaged resulted.

I tell the line man - the desk at the FBO - everyone nods with their head in agreement.  You go do your thing.  They do theirs.  No way to police this.  I took the position of NO MOVEMENT.

[mike_elliott]

8 minutes ago, cbarry said:

I wonder what responsibility we have as owners/pilots to follow the POH where it states power tows are not recommended.  Should we simply instruct the FBO upon egressing the airplane that power towing is not permitted by the POH, so we’re totaling willing to park wherever...just not where the plane needs to be moved later?  It seems like most of us are unwilling to be emphatic, want to the nice and just gingerly point out the turning/towing limits to the lineman.  I believe if we took the stance that power tows are not recommended and clearly announced  this to the FBO, then we would a solid stance if they overruled us and towed it anyway and damaged resulted.

Unfortunately, announcing, telling, educating, etc of the tow limits to line personnel, desk attendants, FBO managers, etc sometimes is not effective and then requires remedial training by the justice department. How many of us have instructed pax not to step on the flaps and then watch them do it? I finally took up the practice of leaving my flaps in the TO position to prevent this. Its amazing, even tho it says "NO STEP" right where they step, people do, unless it is pointed downward some, then their brains kick in and suggest they might slip.

To add insult to injury, knowing Omar, he probably tipped the line guy as he left the plane prior to receiving the damage....(dont forget to add that to your damage list  )

 

[cbarry]

30 minutes ago, OHAEDO said:

I tell the line man - the desk at the FBO - everyone nods with their head in agreement.  You go do your thing.  They do theirs.  No way to police this.  I took the position of NO MOVEMENT.

Roger that!   Nail them to the wall!   Great pick on your TBM.  That is one nice craft!

[Guest]

4 hours ago, OHAEDO said:

I tell the line man - the desk at the FBO - everyone nods with their head in agreement.  You go do your thing.  They do theirs.  No way to police this.  I took the position of NO MOVEMENT.

If the steering bungee in your new TBM is like the one in older 700 models it shears a small roll pin internally.  No instructions for replacing the pin other than a new bungee for $6000.  
 

Clarence

[bonal]

This whole situation just stinks to high heaven.  I'm glad your Mooney was made whole but sadly you have not and I hope you can take the fight to those that have damaged you.  I can't imagine how great you felt when you first took ownership of that beautiful airplane and how crushed you were when this happened for such a stupid careless action.  Best of luck in your efforts to recover what is due you.