Lots of water in tank 67C

[chriscalandro]

The plan is to pressure test on wed or Thursday 

[carusoam]

Wow Chris.... (sense the dead pan, eye roll....)

It is not normal to have water in the tank.

It is not normal to keep flying the plane with water in the tank.

It is not normal to be able to remove all the water by simply sumping the tank.
 

look at all the rust on the part we talked about months ago... (more eye roll)

 

It is hard to diagnose real problems when stock pictures are randomly substituted for reality.

 

you proved you had a leak months ago...

you still have a leak today...

You have been given advice about procedures used for finding the leaks...

Yet, you still haven’t followed them...

 

Some where along the way you are going to get yourself stuck in a corner...   try to avoid doing this to yourself...

Ignoring the rusty parts is a deadly mishap waiting to happen...

The factory has been putting in stainless parts for a reason... not just for looks...

Simply,

• Rust bits block drains from closing...
• Rusty parts allow rain entrance...
• Rust moves downstream and get stuck on screens and in fuel nozzles....

Add that to your list of things to take care of when able...

Hope you can get this off the list sooner rather than later.

There are plenty of used stainless parts available for not much money...

Since you have water in the tank already... why didn’t you get a hose and point it at the leaky part and prove to yourself where the water enters?

 

Why not bring a mechanic to the plane to eliminate unsafe guessing... it is surely better for your health... 

Inviting @Marauder to have a read of my response...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[chriscalandro]

You must have missed the part where I just said I’m pressure testing it Wed or Thursday. I’ve been waiting for an opening at the shop so I don’t have to do it myself. 

the rust that’s there is not a significant way through and is surface only. It’s been checked and there’s a plan to replace it and a number of other things. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by chriscalandro

[carusoam]

I missed the part about you taking it seriously...

You have been writing in a cavalier style for a year already.

May be you are serious... and I don’t see it.

Maybe your sense of humor is lost on me...

Or Maybe, You are trying to get help and it’s unclear...

 

I shared my experience of storing my M20C outside for a decade... I had a leak like yours.

I didn’t have MS to share ideas with.

I took unreasonable risk because I was un-informed...

I hand it back to you... because you are better informed...

 

Let us know what you get accomplished...

If that much rain water gets in the tank... It didn’t take any pressure to get in, it won’t take any pressure to find the leak...

If it is fuel cap related, we have @OSUAV8TER as our resident fuel cap guy... he may have access to proper part numbers for the fuel neck ring...or any other details to be familiar with...

When you get to testing the water tightness of the tank.... you can do this with fuel by simply filling the tank...

If fuel doesn’t run out... water won’t come in...   some jacks or a hill may be required... 

PP thoughts only, urging you to seek the help of a mechanic.. still...

Best regards,

-a-

[HRM]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

This is how it was taped off. The picture is with the tape removed and replaced but that’s how it was before I checked it. 

Frankly, I think it is time for the tarp, much simpler than the pressure test. Of course, not as revealing, but if the tarp cures the intrusion you can concentrate on the upper wing seams when you do the pressure test.

Oh, and thanks for keeping us abreast of this--fascinating problem!

Edited February 22, 2020 by HRM
Added thx.

[chriscalandro]

55 minutes ago, HRM said:

Frankly, I think it is time for the tarp, much simpler than the pressure test. Of course, not as revealing, but if the tarp cures the intrusion you can concentrate on the upper wing seams when you do the pressure test.

Oh, and thanks for keeping us abreast of this--fascinating problem!

 

I just cleaned off “all that rust” with a bit of scotch brite, and the caps have been tested thoroughly. We’ve been down that road and back, down again, and then back again. There is no more troubleshooting or maintenance to be done on them. It’s not the caps. It’s not that the filler neck. (However it could be sealant around the filler neck). No more cap talk or I told you so-s about caps. no more summarizations of fuel cap testing problems or techniques. Time to move on.

I don’t have a tarp but I do have a lot of blue tape. This time I taped the seam as well. I’m sure it will rain between now and the time it gets to the shop next week.
Looking closer at it I think there is a good chance of this being the source. it makes a lot of sense, and there’s enough of a bump for it to act as a water collector. 
 

I've been waiting For this shop to have availability. There’s a lot of airplanes down here and people are busy. 
 

If the results are inconclusive, I’ll get wing covers. 
 

if we find the answer I’ll post it here. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by chriscalandro

[carusoam]

1) the community has been trying to help you out from day one...

2) your response is to bark at them and pretty much ignore their advice...

3) Your responses are not following the reality that you have been saddled with...

• your tank leaks water, as you have proven to yourself...
• They need to be fixed, as evidenced by examples everywhere...
• If you need an example of an MSer that is no longer with us, that had water in his tanks, it isn’t too hard to find...

This thread is four months old... 

Your plane needs a fix.

Time to get on it, no theatrics needed.

What is really keeping you from getting this done?
 

Why keep bringing this up and not get it done?

Some things get away from ordinary PP maintenance...

Somethings get expanded into AW issues...

The community isn’t looking forward to problems...  they aren’t loading things onto your plate...

There comes a time when you just need to go see a mechanic to get things right...

Need a reference for that?

Best regards,

-a-

[chriscalandro]

It’s not the caps and it’s not going to be the caps. I can’t troubleshoot caps that are different makes and models than the one I have. 
@hrm, thank you for suggesting the seam. We’re looking there next and pressure testing. 
 

im not comfortable dumping soapy water in my tank and as I stated I’ve been waiting to get into this shop. I’ve stated that a few times now today. 
 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by chriscalandro

[EricJ]

22 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

im not comfortable dumping soapy water in my tank and as I stated I’ve been waiting to get into this shop. I’ve stated that a few times now today. 

With the tank pressurized there should be no soapy water making it into the tank when sprayed on the cap or seams outside, even at the leaks.   If you're still worried, you can use the formula for Soapless Bubble Fluid Formula Preparation for Leak Check in the M20J manual, section 28-13-00.  

 

Edit:  You can buy soapless bubbles at Aircraft Spruce:   https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/detectorfluid08-12291.php

Edited February 23, 2020 by EricJ

[chriscalandro]

Pressure and bubble test inconclusive. No leaks found. 

[HRM]

5 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Pressure and bubble test inconclusive. No leaks found. 

This has gone Twilight Zone, hasn't it?

[chriscalandro]

I’m beyond frustrated 

[HRM]

4 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

I’m beyond frustrated 

Time for the tarp.

This is looking like a roof leak and roofers will tell you that water can travel quite some distance from the leak source--this can make it difficult to tell where a drip is coming from, for example.

So, if the tarp excludes the water, then it means that the tank either needs resealed or whoever did the testing missed the leak. I say time to take it to Maxwell--his shop is renowned for saving Mooneys from the resealer or at least buying some time.

[chriscalandro]

If I can get to Texas that’s probably the next step. 

[chriscalandro]

Hell, at this point I’d bring it to Edison and let him strip and reseal it. But that money went with the stock market this week...

 

stupid Coronavirus...

Edited February 27, 2020 by chriscalandro

[gsxrpilot]

I can certainly understand the frustration. I would want to just be done with it at this point and the way to do that is to get a really professional on the job. Your cheapest option would be Don Maxwell in Texas, or for a full strip and reseal, I'd be heading to Paul in Minnesota or Edison in Florida.

Get is done right and be done with it. Best of luck.

[chriscalandro]

The only thing that stops me from bringing it to Edison (and I’ve talked to him) is that it isn’t leaking OUT anywhere either.  Edison won’t do patches, only full strip and reseal. And at this point I’m not confident even that would do it. Which doesn’t make sense. 

[HRM]

When this finally gets solved...and it will get solved...it will be epic.

[carusoam]

make an epic list that you can follow... take pics of every step... in case you missed something important... something you can’t see, but somebody else can... post the pics... see if somebody will look at them with you...

Know there are people with less money, and less skill than you have, that have successfully found leaks and fixed them...

When things don’t make sense...

1) We seek professional guidance... (because it is that important...)

2) We get second opinions... we owe this to ourselves, and our wallets... (I learned this after the first doctor told me what I wanted to hear...)

3) We don’t sit on our hands and ignore what we know needs to be fixed... (urging to get that second doctor)

4) We know this is serious because we lost a young MSer out in California who had a water problem in his tank (my memory isn’t very good so I may have missed a detail)  (true story around here somewhere)

5) If water is getting in... we know air molecules are smaller than water molecules... testing with air is sure to be able to leak through the same hole, seem, rivet, location... (factual statement)

6) Working with your most ordinary mechanic should be able to find an air leak, no professional tank sealer required... it is most often a two person job... one to supply the air... the other to put his ear where it needs to be... (mechanics are pretty talented people)

7) When trying this on an Ovation tank... you can inflate the sheet metal with your lungs... and the air pressure comes right back out the same tube you put it in... when you release the source of pressure... (done years ago...)

8) There are other things you can learn if a tank vent gets blocked...  it literally will ‘oil can’...  (going off topic a bit)

9) Oil can is a term left over from the 70s... oil came in quart cans... if you put only one hole in the top of the can with a can opener... the can walls get drawn in by the vacuum that is created as the oil departs through the hole.... (more detail...)

10) Does this consistently happen every time it rains, or is it different each time? (Back on topic)

11) got any surveillance video of your plane...?  Has any of your fuel gone missing? (Side bar, stranger things have happened)

12) Most things related to solving this challenge will... 

• not be fun
• not be fast
• not be convenient
• not be low cost

But there are a bunch of things that you can do to know what the problem is... one at a time to rule them out...

13) Finding the problem should be straight forward. Not hocus pokus kind of magic by a soothe sayer....

14) Staying on the low cost side... get a tight fitting hose connected to the vent... (measure the vent before going to the tube store)

15) with the cap off blow air in the hose... this proves the vent is open and air should flow freely... (probably hear the air sound coming out)

16) put the cap on... blow in the hose the same way... at first the air blows in quite readily... inflating the tank... pressure builds quickly and will fight the blower...

17) remove the blower the tank deflates/exhales...

18) if the pressure doesn’t build, you have proven to yourself two ways that you still have a leak...

19) having a second person available is cool... if they have ears... they can probably hear it...

20) If you are not sure of your skills... do the same thing to the other tank... (that one is proven to work, prove your skills with it...)

21) If the cap is working properly, (which you proved it is) gently/completely cover it with water... blow air in through your tube into the tank vent... and observe no bubbles coming out the cap’s edges or center post...

22) To have so much water entering through one location it is probably near the cap or in line with the cap... the amount of sheet metal uphill is what makes a difference... the rain collects and runs down hill... downhill is a diagonal direction...

23) If still short on change, and no results have been found... take the plane off line... empty the tank completely... this allows you the flexibility to test each rivet, seam, crack in the paint...

24) get creative while you still can... find a small rubber plunger... see if you can pressurize a few individual rivets... see if one won’t hold any pressure... start with the ones that look like they are smoking... smoking rivets in the tank section would be bad... 

25) Smoking rivets are caused by rivets that are loose enough to move, they wear fine aluminum particles that oxidize and look like smoke has come out of the hole...

26) common old sealant problems... some sealant flakes and falls off loose sealant can’t hold fuel in or water out... (use your camera to take video of the inside of your tank, this time...)

27) expect that you can do this... you have so much water in the tank already, it can’t get much worse...

28) when the experiments are done... clean out the water from the tank in the lowest corner... near the sump drain... there is a low spot that is probably still harboring water... near pint in volume probably...

29) Check your logic with your mechanic before returning the plane to flight...

30) Sense any short cuts along the way, and avoid them...

It helps to make friends...   

Really helps to have a mechanic friend...

 

PP thoughts only, things considered when I had tank and other issues...

If anything on this list doesn’t make sense... kindly disregard the whole thing...

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

Did someone already suggest a well hidden motion camera to catch the joker that is putting water in your tanks?

[carusoam]

8 hours ago, tmo said:

Did someone already suggest a well hidden motion camera to catch the joker that is putting water in your tanks?

Somebody mentioned it... and it was caught in a summary...

11) got any surveillance video of your plane...?  Has any of your fuel gone missing? (Side bar, stranger things have happened)

 

-a-

[chriscalandro]

I’m beloved. Nobody would do such a thing to me. 

[Shiny moose]

What are the results, 4 months later you still finding water ? Resolved? 

[carusoam]

Dear, darling, sweetheart...  beloved.

MS word of the day.   

 

Depending how well the economy is going...

Fuel gets stolen from airplanes somewhat randomly...

Catalytic converters have put an end to anyone wanting to do it twice... lead likes to coat the catalyst... expensive to replace...

 

Video security cameras really have put a limit to it...

 

PP main objective... don’t make a news story of yourself... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[chriscalandro]

It’s been resolved. Not the fuel caps. 

I’ve been told I don’t provide any help on this forum so in keeping with that tradition, Pm me if you want to know the answer.