IO-360-A1A cracked case

[65eTurbo]

That's a really interesting idea.  Wish I had thought of that. I think I may be committed to flying it out.   My mechanic changed the oil in then I flew 15 hours.   I changed it again and found absolutely nothing metallic in the filter.  At this point, I would think any corrosion would have scored the cam and tappet surface enough that there would be no point in  prophylactically checking things.   My plan was to fly another 25 hours and then have Blackstone but tell me what to do. Thoughts?

[M20F]

If you get a new case there is a hole in some for use with a fixed pitch prop.  If you do not plug hole you end up with a fixed pitch prop and get to take everything apart again.  

[zaitcev]

On 8/20/2019 at 10:22 PM, MB65E said:

Buy a new case from lycoming. Depending on the times of all other components, possibly overhaul.

The engine shop, Jewell from Missouri, propose a Superior case.

But it's not going to be signed off as a major overhaul. I don't mind, it's only 300 SMOH anyway. They promise to complete SB240W at least (in fact, most of the expense is for parts - new journals and the like).

Edited August 26, 2019 by zaitcev

[MB65E]

Good deal, I’d be Interested in pricing to confirm the rates have fallen. 

So a new superior case without roller lifters can still be had? 

Thanks!

-Matt

[jetdriven]

If you’re going to buy a new case get the one with roller lifters. That is a very good reason to have one of these, we paid 8k extra for that. But guess what no more worry of lifter spalling.  

[Nukemzzz]

On 8/20/2019 at 10:17 PM, zaitcev said:

Yes, it's yet another case crack on IO-360. This one is on the left side out in front, in the area that narrows towards the propeller.

So, the question is, what are my options? My mechanic says he knows someone who owns a salvage yard and may be able to find a suitable half case. But what happens after that? I have to find someone who can disassemble the whole engine and then assemble it back, correct?

Also, what are chances that the something else crops up once we get the engine apart?

I just found a crack in mine. How much was the superior case?  Apparently I can get mine welded for ~$850 in Tulsa. I’m trying to not put $30k into a plane that will be worth $35k when I’m done. My engine has roughly 300hrs since the last major rebuild and if the cam is good I think it’s worth saving. 

what have you ended up doing?

[MB65E]

Hi!!
Buy a new case from lycoming. Their prices have changed over the last few years to make it worth it. Divco cases will crack again. The pot metal Lycoming used in the 60’s has just seen to many cycles. I’ve been through two case repairs. I would have been ahead by buying a new case.  I think a good shop could change the case for under 6k. 
Cheaper if you have an IA buddy that needs some extra work during these CV19 times. 

Lol. I just  reread my own post from last year, yup still feel the same way. Little bitter about the whole thing still I guess. ;-)

-Matt

[Gary0747]

The classic smile crack under number two cylinders on the IO360 engines apparently happens most frequently on Lycoming cases built prior to about 1985. Lycoming beefed up the metal thickness in this location and reduced the problem significantly.   

[ArtVandelay]

The classic smile crack under number two cylinders on the IO360 engines apparently happens most frequently on Lycoming cases built prior to about 1985. Lycoming beefed up the metal thickness in this location and reduced the problem significantly.   

My mid nineties engine develop a crack near the alternator. PO installed a non standard alternator that was 2.5 lbs heavier than standard.

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, MB65E said:

Hi!!
Buy a new case from lycoming. Their prices have changed over the last few years to make it worth it. Divco cases will crack again. The pot metal Lycoming used in the 60’s has just seen to many cycles. I’ve been through two case repairs. I would have been ahead by buying a new case.  I think a good shop could change the case for under 6k. 
Cheaper if you have an IA buddy that needs some extra work during these CV19 times. 

Lol. I just  reread my own post from last year, yup still feel the same way. Little bitter about the whole thing still I guess. ;-)

-Matt

I understand why you feel that way. Is your “pot metal” comment your personal theory or is there additional supporting information? We’re pushing 700hrs on a case repair done by Crank Case Services of Tulsa.  With regard to cams and cranks, I have found the Lycoming metallurgy of the 60s to be anecdotally superior to later periods. My internals are all original and have had several years of disuse over their lifetime.  Yet no cam or crank problems at teardown. Dynamic balance is a good idea to help reduce the possibility of cracking.

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

My mid nineties engine develop a crack near the alternator. PO installed a non standard alternator that was 2.5 lbs heavier than standard.

That heavy non-standard alternator was still likely 4 pounds lighter that the Delco Remy generators that many vintage birds use.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

17 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

The classic smile crack under number two cylinders on the IO360 engines apparently happens most frequently on Lycoming cases built prior to about 1985. Lycoming beefed up the metal thickness in this location and reduced the problem significantly.   

It’s my understanding that any case that has been overhauled has likely been reinforced by the overhauler.  There are still tons of pre 85 cases in service. The numbers are too great for that not to be the case (I’m so punny)..

Edited April 18, 2020 by Shadrach

[Gary0747]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

It’s my understanding that any case that has been overhauled has likely been reinforced by the overhauler.  There are still tons of pre 85 cases in service. The numbers are to great for that not to be the case (I’m so punny)..

That is the first I had heard of this. How are they beefing up case castings that the factory had determined were too thin in that location?

[Tim Jodice]

26 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

That is the first I had heard of this. How are they beefing up case castings that the factory had determined were too thin in that location?

They put beads of welding in crack prone areas learned from experience. Then they do the usual machining of the case half mating surfaces followed by line boring. 

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

That is the first I had heard of this. How are they beefing up case castings that the factory had determined were too thin in that location?

The late Chuck Ney of "Ney Nozzle" fame told me over the phone that they reinforced all known weak points.  His website disappeared after his passing in 2014, bu the Wayback Machine had the page in its archives. Crank case services said they did as well though their [admittedly lousy] website does not mention it or much else.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Shadrach

[zaitcev]

On 4/17/2020 at 10:01 PM, Nukemzzz said:

I just found a crack in mine. How much was the superior case?  Apparently I can get mine welded for ~$850 in Tulsa. I’m trying to not put $30k into a plane that will be worth $35k when I’m done. My engine has roughly 300hrs since the last major rebuild and if the cam is good I think it’s worth saving. 

what have you ended up doing?

I bought the new case from Superior. The case itself was $800, but the work was $3400 and mandatory replacement parts from Lycoming another $7100. The shop also offered to zero-time the engine for some additional charge, I don't remember how much.

If one can find an engine shop that ignores Lycoming's bulletins and re-assembles the engine using old parts, the whole operation probably can be done under $5000. I don't know enough about engines to make that call, so I took a path of least resistance and spent $11300.

Edited April 28, 2020 by zaitcev

[Shadrach]

On 4/28/2020 at 12:51 AM, zaitcev said:

I bought the new case from Superior. The case itself was $800, but the work was $3400 and mandatory replacement parts from Lycoming another $7100. The shop also offered to zero-time the engine for some additional charge, I don't remember how much.

If one can find an engine shop that ignores Lycoming's bulletins and re-assembles the engine using old parts, the whole operation probably can be done under $5000. I don't know enough about engines to make that call, so I took a path of least resistance and spent $11300.

Why don’t we start with the mandatory factory guidance on replacement parts that some shops are ignoring. Could you link or at least or at least reference the guidance you’ve described? I appreciate your humility when it comes aircraft engines. You seem more confident in your implication that some shops (dare I say that you were referring to the one I used) are ignoring “mandatory” requirements.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Shadrach

[cliffy]

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

[Nukemzzz]

12 hours ago, zaitcev said:

I bought the new case from Superior. The case itself was $800, but the work was $3400 and mandatory replacement parts from Lycoming another $7100. The shop also offered to zero-time the engine for some additional charge, I don't remember how much.

If one can find an engine shop that ignores Lycoming's bulletins and re-assembles the engine using old parts, the whole operation probably can be done under $5000. I don't know enough about engines to make that call, so I took a path of least resistance and spent $11300.

Thanks for the feedback. You paid only $800 for a superior case?  A reworked used OEM case is around $3000. Are you sure they didn’t weld the one you had?  Or was yours done in the 70’s?  Lol

 

-Edit...maybe you mean the case, machined and ready was $800+3400?  I’m getting quoted $4500 for a superior case. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Nukemzzz

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Nukemzzz said:

Thanks for the feedback. You paid only $800 for a superior case?  A reworked used OEM case is around $3000. Are you sure they didn’t weld the one you had?  Or was yours done in the 70’s?  Lol

 

-Edit...maybe you mean the case, machined and ready was $800+3400?  I’m getting quoted $4500 for a superior case. 

$800 was crankcase services overhaul price in late 2009.

[Shadrach]

10 hours ago, cliffy said:

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

So, I know what I think constitutes removal. I know what the person who reassembled my engine interpreted as constituting removal. They are one in the same.  If the fastener is removed it is replaced. One need not remove any rod bolts when splitting a case. I cant imagine any shop reusing any of the hardware listed in that service bulletin but I am sure there is a reason it was issued.  I also cannot imagine the hardware listed being reused.  Perfectly serviceable crank bearings? Maybe. Perhaps someone more learned than me can comment. 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Shadrach