Decision for Mooney v. Beech

[Jrob]

Hello all,

I am a 125 hour private pilot and looking a purchasing a plane in the next year or so.  I am tired of putting along at 100 kts in a rented Cherokee that looks like, well it looks bad.  I plan of finishing up my IFR before purchasing and getting another 75 or so hours. 

I have been following several forums with special interest in this one and bonanza.org trying to decide between a Mooney and Bonanza.  My typical mission will be me, my wife and my 6 y/o son (400#) from KLBB throughout texas (2-3 hours) and someday into the lower Rockies.  I am a surgeon (insert the dead doctor joke here) and do not want to buy more plane than I can handle (thus the reason for the dead doctor jokes). 

I would love to hear any thoughts about why you chose a Mooney over a Bonanza.  Would that decision be different today with the current state of Mooney Aircraft Co.  Also, any thoughts about buying your first plane knowing that over the next several years (and few hundred flight hours) that your skills and comfort level will expand.

Thanks in advance

judge

 

[jetdriven]

A Bonanza will cost a little more up to twice as much to buy, about 30% more to operate, and go 10-20 knots faster than a J model Mooney.  They are also bigger inside.  A36 especially.   Our 1977 J has a useful load of 970 lbs, and full tanks are 330 so that leaves room for 3 people to go 600 NM.  Altitudes up to 12K we have not found to be a problem, up there, we have burned 7.9 GPH moving at 153 KTAS.  V-tails have CG issues. A36 just load it and go. To me the non-availability of parts right now is a bummer, but I have faith Mooney will rise again.  Beech parts are so expensive, it doesnt matter.  Raytheon really means "rape the peons".  I dont think you would outgrow either unless you need a physically larger aircraft or need to haul more than 3 people long distances.  My opinion. I love Bonanzas, but even a 201 was a financial stretch for me as I have other goals too.  Solution: fly both, get an idea what it costs to own and fly one, and buy the best example of what you want.  If you are near Houston, you are welcome to take a ride in our 201.

[Skywarrior]

I wanna see a picture of that kid.

[jetdriven]

ha haaa I think he means him, wife, AND kid are 400#.   But this is Texas after all. 

[triple8s]

I have yet to see any other certified A/C give more speed for the dollar. I fly an old C model, manual gear, hyd/manual flaps, carb engine, cruise 145-150 kts on about 8.5 an hr up high and anual inspections cost about a grand sometimes a bit less. I get about the same fuel economy as an SUV, ya wont do that in a BO. In short? The 201 is probably the best value, just be SURE to get a Mooney expert for pre buy.

[docket]

I have owned two Beech planes, a Baron and a Bonanza and I would be pulling your leg if I didn't say that I loved both of the planes.  My main contrast is that the Mooney feels a lot sportier in flight and is definitely a better performer on a MPG basis.  The other thing that has been a real positive for the Mooney is that we have, in Texas, a great maintenance shop in Don Maxwell.  As for the maintenance expense itself there were some real expensive Beech parts but I have found some expensive Mooney parts as well.  If you melt the exhaust covers on the bottom of the cowl on an Eagle they set you back about $1500 for a ten in piece of plastic.

My main advice is that you can't go wrong either way, just buy the best plane that you can afford.

[Jrob]

Thanks for the input and to clarify my six y/o is a big kid but not quite 400#!

It is interesting how the two forums differ in the discussion about the cost of operation and cost of annuals.  The BO forum have expressed concern that Mooney parts will become impossible to find in the future and besides fuel they really dont discuss a significant higher cost of operation. 

Another consideration is I have friend who is also a low time PPL interested in partnering on a Bonanza.  His mission is similiar although he has two kids so it would probably be a good fit.  Any thoughts on partnering on a plane and specifically with two low time pilots?  Some of the posts on BO and Piper forums talk about how "slippery" a Mooney can be and as I said before I dont want to buy something I can't handle. 

I really appreciate the feedback.

Anybody near Lubbock with a 201 or F? I would love to sit in the back seat of one. 

 

[mooneykflyer]

Quote: Jrob

Hello all,

I am a 125 hour private pilot and looking a purchasing a plane in the next year or so.  I am tired of putting along at 100 kts in a rented Cherokee that looks like, well it looks bad.  I plan of finishing up my IFR before purchasing and getting another 75 or so hours. 

I have been following several forums with special interest in this one and bonanza.org trying to decide between a Mooney and Bonanza.  My typical mission will be me, my wife and my 6 y/o son (400#) from KLBB throughout texas (2-3 hours) and someday into the lower Rockies.  I am a surgeon (insert the dead doctor joke here) and do not want to buy more plane than I can handle (thus the reason for the dead doctor jokes). 

I would love to hear any thoughts about why you chose a Mooney over a Bonanza.  Would that decision be different today with the current state of Mooney Aircraft Co.  Also, any thoughts about buying your first plane knowing that over the next several years (and few hundred flight hours) that your skills and comfort level will expand.

Thanks in advance

judge

 

[alex]

The yoke control coming out of the center of the panel on the bonanzas, unless you are willing to pay big $$$ for a newer model, is horrible. That alone should steer you towards a Mooney.

[Txbyker]

I fly similar to you Jrob in that I fly around Texas 2-3 hrs at a time.  I bought my Mooney late last year.  I was looking for a C-182 thinking I wanted to hop in with a couple of people and full tanks without having to worry too much for weight and balance.  I opted for the Mooney because of fast cruise speeds and similar performance of a C-172 that I had trained in, in regards to approach and manuevering speeds.  You can fly the Mooney at 90 knots with no issue and really slow it down for low time pilots like us.  I finished up my IFR last month in the Mooney with no issues.  You are above 2K altitude in the Panhandle and if you are heading too far NW you might need a turbo.  But for the flatlands south of you the 4 cylinder 201 works great.  At 64 gallons and burning 11.5 gph full throttle, 200mph across the ground is hard to beat.  I find myself topping off at destination airports just for the patronadge.  Texas is a target rich environment for Mooney's (not that other states aren't) so even with the current state of the factory there are some great service centers and hour or two away skilled at getting parts.  I think there is a good one on the field there at LBB as well.  There is a former factory pilot turned-retired-salesperson at All American Aircraft named David "Big Daddy" McGee.  Call him up and discuss your desires.  He is great to talk to and has a wealth of information about Mooneys that he gladly will speak to you about.

[Becca]

I think parts are a bigger problem then you guys are letting on.  Used to be Mooney was one up on the Beech for parts.  Not sure this is going to be the case going into the future.  I can't replace my hail damaged ailerons and elevators for any price right now - not at all the renowned Mooney places in Texas, nowhere.  When will I be able to and how much will it cost?  That's any one's guess.  Presumably if the factory goes a couple years without building parts there will be enough demand with the large fleet that someone else might start to buy jigs and plans and such from them, but how much will they charge and when will it happen?  Luckily its not damage that grounds my plane.  But its still frustrating.

All the other pro-Mooney arguments remain valid.  But if I could afford the additional GPH of a Bonanza.. well...

On the partner thing, no serious advice.  Just firmly establish expectations regarding scheduling, maintenance, upgrades, valuation, etc.  Understand you will both have to do some training (probably 10-15 hrs) in the plane before flying passengers for the insurance company.  Make sure the partner is a person you are willing to get into financial bed with, as it were.  Our partnership is me (~300 hrs at time of purchase), husband (extremely high time), and friend (fairly new PP) and its worked pretty well so far even with the range of experience.

Now I feel the need to go to the Bonanaza forum (link?) to see what those guys are saying about this

[jetdriven]

If you are willing to pull it back a little, a 201 will give you 145 knots on 8 galllons an hour in middle altitudes, and at 11,000, 153 KTAS at 8 GPH.   No bonanza can do that.  But I can't load a 100 lb dog through the baggage door.  Or wear a ten gallon hat at the controls.  Its all about what you want.

[Cris]

Jrob Here is a real life Dr. story for you to consider. My fiancee' is an MD who was married to another MD that unfortunately lost his life in a Bonanza. Needless to say she does not really want to fly with me even though I am a CFII ATP etc. I read the accident report & he simply mismanaged the fuel which is a more more complicated system than is in the Mooney. He was a low time pilot who recently transitioned to the Bonanza & stalled the A/C short of the runway in the trees while in a engine out situation. This was due to fuel starvation at altitude. It was VFR, no mechanical problems & plenty of fuel in one of the tanks. While I do not know if this might have happened in a Mooney I do know that the Mooney is a much stronger A/C with a steel roll cage and one piece wing. Tails & wings don't come off in a Mooney. As an instructor I find the Mooney forces a pilot to maintain airspeed control. The A/C is not "hot". It simply won't land unless you have it right! Other A/C allow you to be, shall I say somewhat sloppy in your flying & IMHO I think it leads to a more casual consideration of flight. Flying in and of itself is not inherently dangerous but it is terrible unforgiving. Bonanza's do have a rep with Dr's. Mooney's apparently do not. Maybe there is a reason. Just my thoughts. Fly safe.

[orangemtl]

Just my ignorant two cents' worth:  I'm a physician also; bought a Mooney Acclaim.  Rec'd my private license 20 years ago, then rarely flew until I bought the Acclaim.  I had 25 years to shop and think about the purchase.  I've always loved Bonanzas, particularly the V tail, but: no new V's, and I wanted an aircraft that I would never, ever outgrow.  

I lack the broad based experience to quote Bonanza vs Mooney vs Corvallis vs Cirrus, but:  I LOVE this plane.  For low timers like me, you need to pay attention; it's no 152.  That said: it rewards your attention with blistering speed, comfort, and with the G1000 (once you get used to the proverbial bells 'n whistles), it's just an amazing piece of machinery.

I saw 195 knots true from Western AZ to Santa Rosa, CA last week at 8500 ft; 180 on the return with a headwind at 9500.  Burned about 17.5-18 gph.  Not cheap, but worth it. You REALLY need to stay ahead of the aircraft, and it is loath to come out of the air unless you plan ahead.  That's OK; my personal bias is that you should have to be pushed by your aircraft a bit, so as not to become lackadaisical.  Put me down for the Mooney. 

PS:  Doc, if you have any queries, feel free to Email me at michaeltlyster@aol.com.

 

[jetdriven]

Cris it sounds like bad piloting, not bad airplane. The same thing happens in piper warriors.  Its called fuel starvation.  I have plenty of hours in Bonanzas too, and in our 201 the fuel selector is between your knees and requires a stick to turn. At least in a Bonanza you can reach it sitting upright.

Ragarding the famous "rollcage" consider an Aeronca Champ is built the same way, only it has fabric covering the tubes.  Bonanza's are semi-monocoque construction.  I do know semi-monocoque structures absorb tremendous amounts of energy deforming. Look at all those Bonanza off field landings and the entire bottom of the aircraft is destroyed, but this allows for a survivable deceleration.  In short, i dont think there is a difference either way.  Now a V-tail cruises very close to its maximum speed and I have busted redline in those things a lot more than I intended.  The tail cam come off if you overspeed the aircraft and maneuver it aggrssively.  It also fishtails which annoys passengers. Straight tail Bonanza's have no structural concerns.  You can pull the wings off at 9 G's so the Mooney wing is stronger, but how much do you need anyways.

I thnk more doctors crash Bonanzas because more doctors fly Bonanzas.  Face it, Mooney's were only marketed as a premium handcrafted luxury airplane from the late 90's on up.  Their moniker was always speed and efficiency IE the 252 was called the "personal airliner". The Bonanza has always been known as the finest GA airplane you can buy.  And the price to match.

Go fly both.

Quote: Cris

Jrob Here is a real life Dr. story for you to consider. My fiancee' is an MD who was married to another MD that unfortunately lost his life in a Bonanza. Needless to say she does not really want to fly with me even though I am a CFII ATP etc. I read the accident report & he simply mismanaged the fuel which is a more more complicated system than is in the Mooney. He was a low time pilot who recently transitioned to the Bonanza & stalled the A/C short of the runway in the trees while in a engine out situation. This was due to fuel starvation at altitude. It was VFR, no mechanical problems & plenty of fuel in one of the tanks. While I do not know if this might have happened in a Mooney I do know that the Mooney is a much stronger A/C with a steel roll cage and one piece wing. Tails & wings don't come off in a Mooney. As an instructor I find the Mooney forces a pilot to maintain airspeed control. The A/C is not "hot". It simply won't land unless you have it right! Other A/C allow you to be, shall I say somewhat sloppy in your flying & IMHO I think it leads to a more casual consideration of flight. Flying in and of itself is not inherently dangerous but it is terrible unforgiving. Bonanza's do have a rep with Dr's. Mooney's apparently do not. Maybe there is a reason. Just my thoughts. Fly safe.

[Cris]

From the Bonanza POH V35,V35 B & V36B thru D-9947  1) "Do not take off if fuel quantiy gauges indicate in yellow band or with less than 13 gallons in each main tank" 2) Turning type takeoffs and takeoffs immediately following fast taxi turn prohibited. 3) Avoid prolonged slips (20 secs or more) with fuel tanks less than half full. 4) 30 seconds for airplanes with baffeled main fuel cells in both wings 5)  20 seconds for airplanes with unbaffeled main fuel cells in either wing and 6) When operating fuel selector "feel" for the detent position. As I said this fuel system is somewhat more complicated than our Mooney's. It does not make it bad but I personally prefer simple-less to forget. And lets not forget that the fuel gauges in these A/C are by definition not to be relied on so I'd guess you would have to measure the amount in the tanks to be sure you had the minimum 13 gals prior to any takeoff unless there were some sort of tab in the tank. (As an aside the Mooney Manual says that takeoffs with less than 12 gals per tank have not been tested). I did not mean to imply that the Bonanza is a bad A/C so if I have offended anyone please accept my apology. On the contrary it is a great A/C. This was a fuel starvation accident but I believe there were contributing factors like the fuel system itself which the accident report noticed. The point of my story was simply to point out that like orangemtl it is important to keep ahead of the A/C & I think that the Mooney forces one to do that on each and every flight but in a safe way. It minimizes the ability to become complacent by relying on the A/C to slow down as opposed to using good pilot tecnique. I am fairly confident that in any off airport incident I'd much rather have the Mooney around me. In the instant case described one wing sheared off when the A/C hit the trees allowing it to impact the ground nose down. It remains to be seen if that would have happened in a Mooney.

[David Mazer]

Jrob, I am another physician with a Mooney.  I'm sure you can find lots of physicians with Bonanzas.  Both airplanes are exceptional airplanes for their mission.  Figure out your mission first and find the plane to fit that mission but be careful you correctly define your mission.  For 2 adults and a child, a Mooney would certainly get you there for less money, and often faster, than the Bonanza but it won't get you there at all if your son gets really big and you need to carry lots of luggage. But that is 10 or more years from now.  Why buy a plane today that you won't need for 10 years?  I have recently flown with my wife, adult son, and our dog (closer to 500 lbs total) with some baggage and 3 hrs fuel with no problem. I had a similar discussion with another physician here and he also started out with a Bonanza as his plane until we really nailed down what he was going to do with it.  Now he is a 1/3 partner in a 74 M20F and loves it. 

I also had a long pause in my flying before coming back to it and purchasing my Mooney and getting current.  Flying the Mooney came relatively easily.  Of course, my previous plane was a Cessna T210 so I had complex/high performance time. The Mooney is no more difficult for me to land than any other tricycle gear plane I've flown.  You just need to get your speed under control and WAIT for it to land.  Trying to make a Mooney land is a fool's errand.  Get a Mooney knowledgable CFI with whom you are comfortable and spend more time with him than you think you need.

I do question the future of Mooney and parts.  Beech has more financial strength behind it (which is easy since Mooney has none).

[FlyFstr]

Quote: alex

The yoke control coming out of the center of the panel on the bonanzas, unless you are willing to pay big $$$ for a newer model, is horrible. That alone should steer you towards a Mooney.

[jax88]

Just the three of you (even when the young one is a bit more grown), flying the low airways of Texas, New Mexico, and Coloado?  Mooney.  I've flown my F (slower than the J, maybe a touch more useful load) across New Mexico and Arizona a few times and aside from the indiscriminate turbulence, it does a more than adequate job.

[wrench]

I've owned a J model now for a year. One of the many things I really like is what is often referred to as it being slippery. My experience found it's fairly easy to slow to gear extension speed of 150 mph (J model) when powering back to ~17 inches in level flight but fairly hard to get below ~135 mph without the gear up horn blasting (remind your passengers that this is going to happen). I think it my be one the best "put the geardown" reminders I've ever witnessed.  

[Jrob]

Thanks everyone for all the input. 

It is re-enforcing what I was already thinking.  I knew the acquistion cost for the Mooney would be significantly less but the maintenance cost are not something that the BO forum really makes very obvious.  The parts issue is still a concern for me but thankfully I am not going to begin seriously looking for another few months. 

My wife is a little concerned about the cabin size of the Mooney.  Thankfully she drives little, fast cars which I think is very similiar to the "feel' of a Mooney. 

Cant wait to put a tail number under my name in the next year or so.

Judge

[David Mazer]

With respect to cabin width, Plane & Pilot magazine shows a 1988 M20K has a cabin width of 43.5 in and height of 44.5 while an A36 Bonanza, year not specified, has a cabin width of 42 in and height of 50.  Goes to show what conventional wisdom is worth.

[jetdriven]

the front of a bonanza doesnt taper down so much, although the Bo might be narrower, it feels quite larger.  there is definately more room for your legs.  Mooney is like a kayak in that regard.  And with a throwover yoke and lay down pedals on the right side, there is tons of room for the passenger. 

[ghovey]

Whichever airplane you select, look carefully at the avionics. Paricularly if you buy an Ovation/Acclaim or a turbo bonanza. These planes can fly fast and modern avionics reaaly help your situational awareness. At a minimum I would look for 530/430 or an MFD with a steam gauge panel, but you would benefit from a glass panel, new or retrofit.

[danb35]

Quote: orangemtl

I saw 195 knots true from Western AZ to Santa Rosa, CA last week at 8500 ft; 180 on the return with a headwind at 9500.