Pay to See Logs

[jax88]

I inquired about an Eagle that is listed on Controller and was told that it would cost $250 to get a look at the log books.  AND, the $250 is only refundable if I purchase the aircraft.  Uh, no thanks, someone else will get my cash.

[KSMooniac]

Wow, that is crazy.  Run away from that seller/broker...

[Tom_Veatch]

Sounds like the Bravo Tango school of aircraft merchandising.

[Cruiser]

runs off the tire kickers for sure.

[Parker_Woodruff]

hmmm...sounds eerily similar to a couple brokers/scammers I know of...

[John Pleisse]

I have spoken with this broker and he seems well liked by customers. Fully produced videos and ALL logs .pdf for every plane he sells.....standard presentation. Some people are good at what they do. Others, not so much.

http://www.wildbluellc.com/

 

[jax88]

Wildblue isn't the seller in question.  As for running off the "tire kickers", if I've got the logs in .pdf format, it costs me no more to attach them to the email requesting the $250, so why not.  You never know when one of those tire kickers will turn into a buyer.  Exposure is a good thing in sales.

[Skywarrior]

The one for $155K has had one gear-up 6 years ago.

Chuck M.

[jax88]

Gear up huh?  The engine log has the incident listed as a prop-strike.  That and the high time engine have me hesitating on getting a pre-buy done.  I figure I can get the engine overhauled for $35k - $40k.  Just trying to be patient and wait for the "perfect" aircraft to come along.

[jax88]

It is confirmed, airframe log shows the incident as a gear up.

[Alan Fox]

Run the n# through the faa web sight , and call the owner direct , I am sure he can arrange a look at the logs...The gear up might show up on the ntsb accident database..

[jax88]

I've already got the logs, but thanks.

[Hank]

Quote: n7479

The gear up might show up on the ntsb accident database..

[sleepingsquirrel]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think  a gear up landing has to be reported. With no injuries or fatalities I think the last thing I read was don't bother us with the inevitable. It's possible that a prop strike would not meet the requirement for reporting as well.

[N6784N]

if im not mistaken, i think the only time we have to notify a incident like a prop strike is for take off, landing or taxiing to take off. if somebody is taxiing a plane say from one spot to another with no plans to take off then it doesnt need to be reported. thats how i anderstand it anyway.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: N6784N

if im not mistaken, i think the only time we have to notify a incident like a prop strike is for take off, landing or taxiing to take off. if somebody is taxiing a plane say from one spot to another with no plans to take off then it doesnt need to be reported. thats how i anderstand it anyway.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Subpart B—Initial Notification of Aircraft Accidents, Incidents, and Overdue Aircraft

§ 830.5   Immediate notification.

The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United States, or any foreign aircraft shall immediately, and by the most expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office¹ when:

¹ NTSB regional offices are located in the following cities: Anchorage, Alaska; Atlanta, Georgia; West Chicago, Illinois; Denver, Colorado; Arlington, Texas; Gardena (Los Angeles), California; Miami, Florida; Seattle, Washington; and Ashburn, Virginia. In addition, NTSB headquarters is located at 490 L'Enfant Plaza, SW., Washington, DC 20594. Contact information for these offices is available at http://www.ntsb.gov.

(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed serious incidents occur:

(1) Flight control system malfunction or failure;

(2) Inability of any required flight crewmember to perform normal flight duties as a result of injury or illness;

(3) Failure of any internal turbine engine component that results in the escape of debris other than out the exhaust path;

(4) In-flight fire;

(5) Aircraft collision in flight;

(6) Damage to property, other than the aircraft, estimated to exceed $25,000 for repair (including materials and labor) or fair market value in the event of total loss, whichever is less.

(7) For large multiengine aircraft (more than 12,500 pounds maximum certificated takeoff weight):

(i) In-flight failure of electrical systems which requires the sustained use of an emergency bus powered by a back-up source such as a battery, auxiliary power unit, or air-driven generator to retain flight control or essential instruments;

(ii) In-flight failure of hydraulic systems that results in sustained reliance on the sole remaining hydraulic or mechanical system for movement of flight control surfaces;

(iii) Sustained loss of the power or thrust produced by two or more engines; and

(iv) An evacuation of an aircraft in which an emergency egress system is utilized.

(8) Release of all or a portion of a propeller blade from an aircraft, excluding release caused solely by ground contact;

(9) A complete loss of information, excluding flickering, from more than 50 percent of an aircraft's cockpit displays known as:

(i) Electronic Flight Instrument System (EFIS) displays;

(ii) Engine Indication and Crew Alerting System (EICAS) displays;

(iii) Electronic Centralized Aircraft Monitor (ECAM) displays; or

(iv) Other displays of this type, which generally include a primary flight display (PFD), primary navigation display (PND), and other integrated displays;

(10) Airborne Collision and Avoidance System (ACAS) resolution advisories issued either:

(i) When an aircraft is being operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan and compliance with the advisory is necessary to avert a substantial risk of collision between two or more aircraft; or

(ii) To an aircraft operating in class A airspace.

(11) Damage to helicopter tail or main rotor blades, including ground damage, that requires major repair or replacement of the blade(s);

(12) Any event in which an operator, when operating an airplane as an air carrier at a public-use airport on land:

(i) Lands or departs on a taxiway, incorrect runway, or other area not designed as a runway; or

(ii) Experiences a runway incursion that requires the operator or the crew of another aircraft or vehicle to take immediate corrective action to avoid a collision.

( An aircraft is overdue and is believed to have been involved in an accident.

[53 FR 36982, Sept. 23, 1988, as amended at 60 FR 40113, Aug. 7, 1995; 75 FR 927, Jan. 7, 2010; 75 FR 35330, June 22, 2010]

[jax88]

Does "aircraft collision" include colliding with the ground?  If not, I don't see where a simple gear up that does not result in injury or damage to property other than the aircraft requires reporting.  I wonder how much damage to the runway surface a gear up would cause.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: jax88

Does "aircraft collision" include colliding with the ground?  If not, I don't see where a simple gear up that does not result in injury or damage to property other than the aircraft requires reporting.  I wonder how much damage to the runway surface a gear up would cause.

[jax88]

Even the $25,000 stipulation only applies to property "other than the aircraft", thus the question about how much it might cost to resurface a runway should a gear up cause damage significant enough to require a resurfacing.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: jax88

Even the $25,000 stipulation only applies to property "other than the aircraft", thus the question about how much it might cost to resurface a runway should a gear up cause damage significant enough to require a resurfacing.

[GeorgePerry]

I also talked with the broker about this plane...He sent all the logs via PDF files.  All I had to do was ask, no cash changed hands. 

It's unfortunate the listing doesn't mention the damage history (gear up and prop strike)  A quick internet search is all that's needed to see the plane's history, so why not just be forthcoming in the add?  

Even though the Eagle he is representing is a nice plane, the problem with this particular one is the price point doesn't differentiate it from other well maintained, low time Mooneys that have NDH.   Gas prices being what they are, a late model J and a 252 are arguably a better buy, both in terms of Useful Load and fuel costs. 

A typically a gear up landing with only a sudden stop inspection reduces the plane's value by 10 to 20%, and that's when the repairs are done by a reputable MSC and Engine shop.  With all the "baggage" this particular Eagle has it's asking price is right at "no damage" Vref pricing.  Which IMHO is too high. 

What it really needs is a Factory New IO-55G ($40k) either before or after the eventual sale.  It would also be nice if the seller could preemptively have a full PPO done by a MSC that substantiates the airframe repairs were done correctly.  If the Eagle remains unsold for a while I expect the seller to lower the price.  Although it wouldn't surprise me if a dentist out there has $150K burning a hole in his or her pocket and doesn't do the homework on this particular airframe. (no offense to dentists)

[Immelman]

Sheesh. Now I have heard it all (no, I haven't).

When it comes time to sell my bird..hopefully not a day anytime soon, I'll be happy to send someone a CD with digital photos of all the logs w/o obligation, provided I ask them enough questions to know they're not a tire kicker.

[jax88]

George - I think you have two different Eagles mixed up.  The logs for 625TB were never a problem to get.  Actually, I'm hoping I'm mixed up and you have the logs for 132MA (the one for which the seller refuses to send logs without getting $250).

[GeorgePerry]

Yep I'm talking about 625TB.  If the seller is at all flexible on price, I think there's a deal to be had if the new owner doesn't mind spending additional funds (+/- $40k) to bring the plane up to snuf...