201/231/252 for family/commute

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, Warren said:

I have a 231 with the upper deck pressure controller and an intercooler (similar to gxsrpilot with a little smaller turbo and not quite as good coolling).  I always run lean of peak except for during the climb (full rich for this) and am limited by TIT at high power settings.  My GAMI spread is about 0.5gph and all the cylinder heads run <360 (at 16-18k altitude, approx. 0C, near 75% power LOP).  I am limited by the TIT.  75% power for me is 11.5 gph (I use 2500 rpm and about 33” MP).  Usually at 11.5 gph I will run too high on TIT (it usually puts me really close to 1650 TIT) so I choose to back off a little.  I lean until I get under 1625 to have a little margin.  Using this limit I can usually find a good cruise at 11.0-11.3 gph making almost 75% power (much smaller number for me than a rocket) and this results in about 175-180 TAS at 16-18k. As you apporach 75% power, TIT is the limiting factor (in a TSIO-360).  When LOP,  TIT will be approx. 100F higher than in EGT.  Under lean conditions the flame front is burning so much slower so there is residual combustion happening in the exhaust which continues to raise the temperature afther the EGT sensors.

Strongly suggest 65% power or less (I ran 59% as the most efficient setting with reasonable speed) in any variant of a TSIO-360 as Paul mentioned versus 75% power, unless you don't mind doing a top overhaul . . . or two, before TBO.

[carusoam]

Darth,

Look Up the ‘big pull’ method...

Creeping up on peak and going to the otherside takes a lot of time...

Pulling the mixture to a known FF on the other side of peak allows you to operate the engine in the LOP region with TIT below red line...

It takes some time to determine what works for your set-up.  Or you could borrow some conditions from somebody else around here...

 

final operating conditions take in a lot of variables... but getting to the cool side  of LOP can be quite easy...

 

Using power output <65% is a safety mechanism to avoid the red box while trying to determine settings for yourself...

Are you familiar with the red box and the big pull?

Are you familiar with your engine?

Do you have LOP experience in other engines?

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI....

Best regards,

-a-

[Jerry 5TJ]

Ah, the old debate redux.

Can’t resist:  

•  I operate at any ITT up to redline. 
• I ignore MP and CHT and mixture and GAMI spreads ‘cause I don’t  have any. 
• No ROP or LOP for me:  I run LOK (lots of kerosene)

 

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, LordHelmet said:

On the PA-32 I was never able to get the EGTs to the lean side of peak before I was up to TIT limits.  Further leaning to peak to get on the lean side would’ve put TIT over the limit... hence my dilemma and why I was curious how you guys do it.

As @carusoam says, you just pull the mixture right through. My POH says it's ok to exceed the 1650 TIT redline for up to a minute or so while moving from Rich to Lean of peak. In the 252 I never get to 1650 but then I never exceed 65% power when doing the mixture pull. But it doesn't hurt to pull the mixture all the way until the engine is running too rough to be comfortable, check your TIT, then push the mixture back in until smooth enough. Check TIT again to see if it's below red line. If it is, you're probably good to go. 

My first rule is never attempt this without a good engine monitor (I like the EDM900) and knowing how to use it and read it properly. But just in case I'm wrong or off just a bit, my second rule of never going LOP over 65% power gives me a margin of error and protects my very expensive (to me) engine. I'm at about 1400 hours on original cylinders which I think is good for a TSIO360.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Installing Tempest Fine Wires decreased my EGT/TIT...something to consider if your plane seems to be running really hot.

[LordHelmet]

On 6/17/2018 at 2:02 PM, Jerry 5TJ said:

Ah, the old debate redux.

Can’t resist:  

•  I operate at any ITT up to redline. 
• I ignore MP and CHT and mixture and GAMI spreads ‘cause I don’t  have any. 
• No ROP or LOP for me:  I run LOK (lots of kerosene)

 

You also have no useful load 

[Jerry 5TJ]

It’s only 1,400 pounds.  

[aviatoreb]

On 6/17/2018 at 3:02 PM, Jerry 5TJ said:

Ah, the old debate redux.

Can’t resist:  

•  I operate at any ITT up to redline. 
• I ignore MP and CHT and mixture and GAMI spreads ‘cause I don’t  have any. 
• No ROP or LOP for me:  I run LOK (lots of kerosene)

 

Show off

[Jerry 5TJ]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Show off

Ok—Guilty as charged.  My point: It is easier to fly than a piston engine.  

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Ok—Guilty as charged.  My point: It is easier to fly than a piston engine.  

Sign me up.

[Marauder]

6 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Show off

Ask him to see the fuel bill after fill-up. That will temper that showing off a tad.

[Jeev]

As some others have said I think a J is the best bet for you.  I have owned mine for 8 years and 1000hrs and routinly fly to Mammoth, Vegas to Napa over the Mts, and make 1-2 trips to the Bahamas every year.  My brother use to live in Denver and I would go visit once a month.  The route i settleled on was over the southern Rockies through Laveta Pass then north over Colorado Springs.  I would cross around 14k with no prob at all even with high density altitudes.  I love my J and after new paint, interior, engine, prop ADSB it’s time for something bigger with two engines.  It always happens right when you get an aircraft dialed in.  Anyway i am based at VGT and if I can make a deal work on a 310R it may be for sale in a month or so. PM me your info if you are interested and we can chat.  I have had very little surprises over the years and all the big ticket items were expected. The J is a great aircraft with good all around performance that is easy on the wallet.

[gsxrpilot]

19 hours ago, Jeev said:

As some others have said I think a J is the best bet for you.  I have owned mine for 8 years and 1000hrs and routinly fly to Mammoth, Vegas to Napa over the Mts, and make 1-2 trips to the Bahamas every year.  My brother use to live in Denver and I would go visit once a month.  The route i settleled on was over the southern Rockies through Laveta Pass then north over Colorado Springs.  I would cross around 14k with no prob at all even with high density altitudes.  I love my J and after new paint, interior, engine, prop ADSB it’s time for something bigger with two engines.  It always happens right when you get an aircraft dialed in.  Anyway i am based at VGT and if I can make a deal work on a 310R it may be for sale in a month or so. PM me your info if you are interested and we can chat.  I have had very little surprises over the years and all the big ticket items were expected. The J is a great aircraft with good all around performance that is easy on the wallet.

I'm sure your J will command a premium price, and it will still be the best value for money available when it does come up for sale. The J is the sweet spot for the Mooney type and one that has been taken care of, upgraded appropriately, and flown regularly is the most desirable of the type.

[Piloto]

I agree with Jeev. I have a 1982 M20J and never had turbo problems or expenses. An important consideration when traveling with family.

José

[Bike_rider]

I have owned my 201 for 20 years and am biased when it comes to what is the best aircraft for the mission.  I was very careful to buy something that I could afford to operate and maintain.  I've found that my fixed costs are approximately $800/month, not including the acquisition costs of purchase.  That means that whether I fly the plane or not, it costs me $800.  My mission is to have a very capable cross-country plane for weekend trips but still not cringe when I want to fly 20 miles for a scenic tour with a local hamburger stop.  Your mission sounds as if the 201 would give you the most bang for the buck until your kids become heavier.  I don't think you can go wrong with any of the Mooney aircraft and the choice will depend on your personal preferences.  The most fun part of any major purchase is the anticipation, research and finally taking the plunge!  Good luck and enjoy the hunt.....it doesn't get any better than this!  :))

[LordHelmet]

On 6/21/2018 at 12:52 AM, Jerry 5TJ said:

It’s only 1,400 pounds.  

With full fuel?  Flew a buddies Meridian one weekend and remember being shocked at how much gas we had to leave behind for four of us.  Gotta feed that thing a lot of dollars bills!

Jeev i sent you an pm with my contact info

Edited June 28, 2018 by LordHelmet

[carusoam]

Bike and Lord...

you guys have been MS Members for years...

You need to post more often!  

Best regards,

-a-

[Jerry 5TJ]

3 hours ago, LordHelmet said:

With full fuel?  Flew a buddies Meridian one weekend and remember being shocked at how much gas we had to leave behind for four of us.  Gotta feed that thing a lot of dollars bills!

Jeev i sent you an pm with my contact info

UL is measured with empty tanks, of course. 

Full the PA46 carries 1,003 pounds of fuel.  Add 2 people with baggage and that’s gross weight.  

The Ovation UL was about 900 pounds and it would carry full fuel and the same 2 people.   

Curious Fact: Round-trip to Sun n Fun the two planes used about the same number of gallons.  

If cheap transportation were the only goal I would buy a Toyota Corolla.  

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Curious Fact: Round-trip to Sun n Fun the two planes used about the same number of gallons.  

And you're buying cheaper gallons.

[Marauder]

5 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

UL is measured with empty tanks, of course. 

Empty as in with or without unusable fuel?

[jackn]

I’ve read a lot of how a NA can accomplish ‘almost ‘ as much as a turbo In mountainous reagions. This is a good video of a flight that could be accomplished in a 231 in about 1 1/2 hours that an IO550 took 6 plus fuel stop. 

 

[Jeev]

2 hours ago, jackn said:

I’ve read a lot of how a NA can accomplish ‘almost ‘ as much as a turbo In mountainous reagions. This is a good video of a flight that could be accomplished in a 231 in about 1 1/2 hours that an IO550 took 6 plus fuel stop. 

 

I'm definitely not arguing the fact that a turbo makes things a lot easier in the mountains and the flying conditions in the Video but there have been many times I have strapped on O2 and gone up to 14 - 15,000 in my N/A J to top icy clouds when I knew it was clear at my destination or I had a good out if tops kept rising.  This is where I think a turbo REALLY helps, if you go to 14 or 15 and 100 miles further you find the need to climb to avoid weather, in a N/A if you don't have an out like dependable PIREPS of the tops you can get in trouble. This pilot had that in mind and made a good choice that cost time,  In a turbo you just strap on O2 and go up.  Turbos are great and If flown correctly won't be too bad on the wallet but there is definitely more maintenance involved with them.  I think the big issue with a turbo for Lord helmet (and me) is that the kiddo wont leave the O2 on and because of that the turbos only benefit will be in high and hot departures and climbs which are very manageable in a J with a little extra planning.  If I had kids over 6 or 7 I would go turbo but until then unless I can afford a pressurized twin or Meridian  (I wish) I'm staying N/A. Ohhhhhhhhhhh makes me think of a Cessna 340 or 421, .    Just my .02 and another data point in the discussion and if I had a turbo I would probably say how awesome it is to climb out of Tahoe at 700 + FPM in the summer, ha!  

[Jeev]

Lord Helmet- I saw that you had an IAR-823!! I have about 15 hrs in them and loved that thing!! My buddy uses them for contract work with the Airforce!  Such a cool plane with lots of room and fully aerobatic!  It also has a "Mooney" tail and wet wings so if you get a J you will have some things in common!! The IAR did have more of a problem with leaky tanks then the Mooney though.  I attached a pic of my J (me) in a 3 ship with two IAR's.

[Mcstealth]

On 6/15/2018 at 4:51 PM, LordHelmet said:

Long time lurker, thinking about a Mooney purchase looking for some insight.  I’ve previously built/owned a few RV’s and an IAR-823.  I’ve ruled out any 4 seat experimental as they’re all vastly more expensive (Lancair, RV-10) or have performance issues (Velocity).  The M20 series seems to be the best fit.  I’ve got about 100 hours instructing in an M20J but it was 20 years ago.

I currently live in Reno and am looking for the best combination of speed, economy, maintainability for two mission.

1.) Commuting from Reno to the Bay Area once or twice a month for work (airline pilot).  Winter months when there’s icing are out of the question, and I’d predominantly try and keep to to day VFR or full moon nights.  This would be me solo with minimal gas and about 75% of the flying.

2.) I’ve got two small kids and my wife has really enjoyed the use of friends Bonanzas and Turbo Saratogas, however a newer one is out of reach and the older ones are expensive to maintain and overhaul (and gas pigs for commuting vs an M20).  I’d like something we can grow into and use for family trips, mainly around the west coast but maybe an annual trip across the country to family in FL.  This and some periodic joy rides would be the 25%

 

RNO to the Bay Area requires crossing the Sierras and VFR 8500’ is about as low as you want to be no wind, more like 10-12k.  Solo, a 201 seems to be the best bang for the buck.  For long family trips the 231 and more so the 252 seem to be the right airplane but mild overkill for the solo commuting.  How would the 201 fare with the family at high altitude and 2-3 hours of gas with reserves?  Density altitudes here frequently hit 8k’ in the summers at field elevation.  The kids are small, 3 and 1... but I’d like to be able to grow into whatever we buy and not have useable load become something that cuts us back to two hour legs.

 

For the experienced owners out there, thoughts or recommendations?

I'm late to this thread, but it seems to me an Early year Ovation is within grasp of the budget. Yes I get it that a nice J is a great choice, budget and all, but we all have seen some low side O's there also. 

[Mcstealth]

On 6/15/2018 at 4:51 PM, LordHelmet said:

Long time lurker, thinking about a Mooney purchase looking for some insight.  I’ve previously built/owned a few RV’s and an IAR-823.  I’ve ruled out any 4 seat experimental as they’re all vastly more expensive (Lancair, RV-10) or have performance issues (Velocity).  The M20 series seems to be the best fit.  I’ve got about 100 hours instructing in an M20J but it was 20 years ago.

I currently live in Reno and am looking for the best combination of speed, economy, maintainability for two mission.

1.) Commuting from Reno to the Bay Area once or twice a month for work (airline pilot).  Winter months when there’s icing are out of the question, and I’d predominantly try and keep to to day VFR or full moon nights.  This would be me solo with minimal gas and about 75% of the flying.

2.) I’ve got two small kids and my wife has really enjoyed the use of friends Bonanzas and Turbo Saratogas, however a newer one is out of reach and the older ones are expensive to maintain and overhaul (and gas pigs for commuting vs an M20).  I’d like something we can grow into and use for family trips, mainly around the west coast but maybe an annual trip across the country to family in FL.  This and some periodic joy rides would be the 25%

 

RNO to the Bay Area requires crossing the Sierras and VFR 8500’ is about as low as you want to be no wind, more like 10-12k.  Solo, a 201 seems to be the best bang for the buck.  For long family trips the 231 and more so the 252 seem to be the right airplane but mild overkill for the solo commuting.  How would the 201 fare with the family at high altitude and 2-3 hours of gas with reserves?  Density altitudes here frequently hit 8k’ in the summers at field elevation.  The kids are small, 3 and 1... but I’d like to be able to grow into whatever we buy and not have useable load become something that cuts us back to two hour legs.

 

For the experienced owners out there, thoughts or recommendations?

I'm late to this thread, but it seems to me an Early year Ovation is within grasp of the budget. Yes I get it that a nice J is a great choice, budget and all, but we all have seen some low side O's there also.