Running a tank dry in flight

[rob]

Despite my novice status, I somehow managed to stumble across the AOPA, and become a member. I read their magazine and website regularly and particpate on their forums.Timely enough, the March discussion about running tanks dry: http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2011/march/feature_dogfight_tank_dry.html

Mr. Horne, who advocates that there is a time and place to run tanks dry is a pretty accomplished fellow: http://www.asa2fly.com/thomas-a-horne-c141_category.aspx I'm sure he can help you to understand why in the wild wild west, or anywhere else, it might be appropriate to run tanks dry.

I checked out your link, too. . I still didn't see any statistics or reports relating to a pilot who intentionally starved one tank and encountered a problem with the other.

 

[Lood]

I've never opted to run a tank dry - I just don't have the balls. However, I know exactly how much fuel my F uses at WOT and 2500 rpm. So, I know that after 6 hours of flying at that power setting, I MUST LAND IMMEDIATELY. The little fuel left will cater for extra fuel used during the climb. As a back-up, I also have a very reliable and accurate fuel flow computer.

BTW, why doesn't my Mooney have a fuel pressure gauge, but only a fuel flow - which underreads by 2 gals in any way?

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: rob

Despite my novice status, I somehow managed to stumble across the AOPA, and become a member. I read their magazine and website regularly and particpate on their forums.Timely enough, the March discussion about running tanks dry: http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2011/march/feature_dogfight_tank_dry.html

Mr. Horne, who advocates that there is a time and place to run tanks dry is a pretty accomplished fellow: http://www.asa2fly.com/thomas-a-horne-c141_category.aspx I'm sure he can help you to understand why in the wild wild west, or anywhere else, it might be appropriate to run tanks dry.

I checked out your link, too. . I still didn't see any statistics or reports relating to a pilot who intentionally starved one tank and encountered a problem with the other.

 

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Oh and by the way...here is the rest of the data you were asking for...

http://www.thomaspturner.net/Fuel.htm

 

...nuf said

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

The POH for my 64E suggested running a tank dry for max range. 

Only run one tank dry, by the way, not both!

So, I did try it, once, while solo at 12,000' on one leg of a long cross-country (Maryland to California).  Even when you know the engine is going to quit in a few minutes it is STILL a big thrill when the engine drops off line.  I guarantee you will notice when it happens.    I switched tanks quick by heck and it started right back up. 

 

[AlexR]

Quote: 201-FLYER

Ok I'm a commercial rated pilot and have been flying for over 15 years.  I've owned two Mooney's a J and now a K. I've heard alot of things in my time especially about Mooney's but never anything like this. So I have to ask the question....why in the wild wild west would you want to run your tank dry? What if the other tank's fuel line becomes clogged or blocked for example... then your SOL. These are the thing that NTSB accident reports are made of.  I'm not trying to insult anyones flying or judgement making ability but I just don't get it. 

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

If my gear doesn't come down I have an alternate way by which to extend it.  If I can't draw fuel from one side of my plane because of a blockage then I could go back to the other side right?...oh wait, no I can't...I just ran it dry.  Now that's comparing apples to oranges if you ask me. It's all about risk mitagation my friend, simple risk mitagation.  Since my bird can stay in the air much longer then I can it's never really an issue but my personal minimum is 45 minutes reserve in each tank.  If other people have a different fuel management system based on their particualr model of Mooney so be it.  I could tell you this, if I told any one of the instructors I normally fly with I wanted to go up with them and run a tank dry for whatever the reason, even if the POH say's it's ok  I would probably be needing to find another instructor. In some cases a POH could have been written 40+ years ago and some of what's in the book could be based on methodologies and practices which have since been found to be less then optimal from a performance or operational perspective.  Think RoP vs. LoP for example.  My point is operating critera could change or be modified although the POH really never does. For those who run tanks dry in flight, good luck with it, in my turbo it would not work and even it did and was an approved procedure in some flight manual I still dont think I would be doing it....just rememeber Murphy always seems to show up a whole lot more in the air and never really on the ground.

[danb35]

Quote: 201-FLYER

If my gear doesn't come down I have an alternate way by which to extend it.  If I can't draw fuel from one side of my plane because of a blockage then I could go back to the other side right?...oh wait, no I can't...I just ran it dry.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Dan-

 

Point well taken; however, since were still comparing fuel starvation issues to inop landing gear issues I would like to make this final point...well hopefully it's a final point. If I can't get my gear down I'm still going to land my bird where I want to land her...let's say at an airport maybe? Well if I have a fuel starvation issue my ability to land at an airport may not be guaranteed...again were comparing apples to oranges my friend.

[231Pilot]

I don't get it either.  I like the security of not having to restart an engine in flight....no matter how easy it is supposed to be.

[FlyDave]

From my viewpoint this is a common sense issue. Why introduce engine failure when flying. It's as simple as that.

So, do you guys do this when flying IFR? If not, why? If it's soooooooo simple and depenable and you only need 45 minutes of fuel after getting to your alternate.....

Oh, then there's the issue of turning with a dry tank. Let's see, I ran the right tank dry so I have to make right traffic because I REALLY DON"T WANT THE ENGINE TO QUIT OR SPUTTER IN THE PATTERN. But wait, there's some guy in a Cub in the patter at a non-controlled airport that didn't call his position and now he's right in front of me...left turn to avoid...OOOPS...SH_T...can only make right turns....and now there a flock of birds in front of me and I have to keep turning left.....DOUBLE-SH_T!!!!! Oh.....800' agl and engine craps out.....you get it. Accidents are typically a compounding of issess, not just running the tank dry.

I may kill the engine with the mixture for the re-start experience at high altitunde above an airpot ONCE but that's the only time I'd intentionally let the engine die or sputter in flight.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

201PILOT/FLYDAVE-

 

Both very good points! Words (and ideas) to live by in my humble opionion.

[eldeano]

Quote: FlyDave

From my viewpoint this is a common sense issue. Why introduce engine failure when flying. It's as simple as that.

[crxcte]

Thanks for all the input.  You never know when a condition may rise that you may have to run a tank dry.  I've been flying a Mooney IFR for over 15 years and have not yet ran a tank dry.  My IFR instructor owned a Mooney with over 5K hours and did it all the time.  My attitude was why risk it.  I've deadsticked a plane in before due to a blown exhaust valve and believe any emergency landing can be successful.  An old FAA investigator told me many years ago there are 3 things that will keep you alive while flying, first fly high (more options and a lot of time for planning and troubleshooting), don't fly at night (can't see to land), last don't fly through thunderstorms.  I came back from the West coast a few days ago, non-stop.  I managed my fuel leaving 5-6 gallons on left and 6-7 on the right.   I would hate to think that if I came in to land and had an emergency landing due to a fuel problem while in a bank and the POH had a run tank dry procedures it could be used against me.  I have read many NTSB reports and in a problem described the investigator could report that the pilot did not follow the POH and had they, a fuel problem related to an accident described would not have occurred.  I plan on writing a procedure to run my tank dry should I ever need use it.  Another situation I see is if flying over forecasted IFR that turned to unexpected LIFR.  I think I would run a tank dry to maximize my burn rate rather than land in LIFR. Of course it would be good to make a trail run first.  Flying over open water is another flight I make about twice a year, offshore as much as 150 miles.  Unexpected head winds could require maximizing the burn rate.  I've always believed landing in water is much better than the ground especially around Southern Mississippi and Alabama where there are nothing but trees.  I would choose open water any day. Oh yes, I have life jackets, emergency gear, and mobile waterproof elt when flying over open water.  Actually I put the life jacket on as soon as I get over water.  Risk mitigation was stated before and that pretty much sums it up for me.  You never know if you might have to run a tank dry, thanks for every ones input I know I would be better prepared.

[richardheitzman]

Accidents are also a chain of events. And with all chains any link can be broke by making good, sound decisions and managing risk. IF I was flying (by myself) on a long range trip, say to New York, on a VFR day with plenty of sleep the night before, good tail winds, sound aircraft, all together making this a low risk flight, I might make the choice to run right wing dry, after making sure left tank operated normally by taking off and switching in flight, in order to "stretch my legs" a little bit. BUT I would damm sure know that MR. Murphy was sitting on my shoulder laughing his ass off while I did it because I just introduced a eliment of risk to my flight that didn't need to be there. Fuel starvation is not normal operation. 45 minutes in each side is on the high side of caution. There is a happy middle ground that each pilot will find that makes him/her comfortable. To me, I will do EVERYTHING I can to mitigate the risk of my flight, and running a tank dry is somthing that can be done in a controlled, well thought out and careful manner, and for me, not soon to be done.

[Shadrach]

Wev've been running Mooney tanks dry for 40+ years...multiple airplanes, multiple pilots. no issues. If you don't want to do it, then don't.  I can understand why some might find it unnerving, but it is just not a big deal...really, SOP for many. I like to know that I have not left any usable fuel in the tank befor my last switch on a long XC. The engine never protests after fuel is reintroduced to the equation.

[WardHolbrook]

30 years ago I ran a tank dry with my brother and his wife on board. To this day, my sister in law still talks about how close we  all came to dieing when our engine quit.  Personally, I don't hesitate doing it at all; but I swap tanks at the first indication of fuel pressure fluctuation. I've only had problems one time getting an engine restarted after running a tank dry. It was in a Beech Sierra and it seemed like it took forever to get it going. It was long enough that I called up center to let them know that my engine had quit. It finally caught and we continued on. It's not so bad with the Mooney fuel system - two tanks. But on some Pipers and many twins you can have up to 6 tanks. If you don't make an effort to get all of the fuel out of them it's pretty easy to end up with a scenario where your 60 minute reserve is spread out over several fuel tanks. That's not a good position to be in if you ever have to dip into your reserves. That tends to be a stressful time any way and you don't need to be adding to it by the distraction of having to swap tanks every 5 or 10 minutes because your reserve is spread out all over the airplane.

Oh, and one more thought...

Fuel gauges are notoriously inaccurate. It's not a bad idea to find out what the gauge reads  when the tank is really empty. Drawing down to the fuel pressure flucuation is good enough.

[Piloto]

Quote: Shadrach

Wev've been running Mooney tanks dry for 40+ years...multiple airplanes, multiple pilots. no issues. If you don't want to do it, then don't.  I can understand why some might find it unnerving, but it is just not a big deal...really, SOP for many. I like to know that I have not left any usable fuel in the tank befor my last switch on a long XC. The engine never protests after fuel is reintroduced to the equation.

[Shadrach]

Quote: Piloto

 Just make sure you carry an Allen wrench to tighten the set screw in the knob. There has been cases were the knob came loose and the pilot was unable to switch tanks.

José

[1970m20e]

In my 1946 Cessna 140 I would always run one tank dry to ensure I used all the fuel in that tank and I knew how much I was burning.  It also ensured that I got maximum range out of it.  But with the Mooney and it's much larger tanks and range I don't think I'll need to burn until empty. 

[Jsavage3]

I won't intentionally run a tank dry because of what I see occur everytime I sump my tanks.  Dirt/water sinks to the bottom - right where that last gasp of fuel gets pulled into my fuel injected engine.  The "ppm" or contaminates per ounce of fuel increases as the quantity decreases in the tank.

When my low fuel light illuminates, I switch to the other tank.

 

[Shadrach]

Quote: Jsavage3

I won't intentionally run a tank dry because of what I see occur everytime I sump my tanks.  Dirt/water sinks to the bottom - right where that last gasp of fuel gets pulled into my fuel injected engine.  The "ppm" or contaminates per ounce of fuel increases as the quantity decreases in the tank.

When my low fuel light illuminates, I switch to the other tank.

[Jsavage3]

Shadrach, please explain the how & why one needs not worry about contaminants being pulled into the fuel lines when running a Mooney's fuel tank dry.  Does the fuel tank design "filter itself" somehow prior to the fuel pickup point?

[LT4BIRD]

Its interesting to see everyones outlook on tanks. For me I have run a tank dry but prefer not to.

That being said I think that doing it is no biggie. No I wouldnt like to do it IFR. But I have done in the past to extend my range.

As for as picking up trash its not going to happen. Dirty gaskolator oh yea. I watched a mooney go down after takeoff once. Trash in the gaskolator. 

[LT4BIRD]

Quote: Jsavage3

Shadrach, please explain the how & why one needs not worry about contaminants being pulled into the fuel lines when running a Mooney's fuel tank dry.  Does the fuel tank design "filter itself" somehow prior to the fuel pickup point?