310 hp fuel flow

[Godfather]

Wondering what the consensus is on TO FF for a 310 hp 550.  I’ve had mine at 27.5 but JPI is unwilling to budge on the 26.7 redline.  The STC info states 27.2 but JPI insists it’s a typo. Not really happy with JPI for multiple reasons and I don’t want a blinking light every time I take off. Suggestions?  Anyone know how to get to the setup menu on the edm 900?

Edited September 28, 2017 by Godfather

[jetdriven]

IIrc JPI has To set those at the factory.  I'd have my A&p write them a statement that per the STC the FF redline is 27.2 and if that doesn't satisfy them get the same from Screaming Eagle. Their instructions say put the values in the POh on the form.  That's what you're doing. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by jetdriven

[M20S Driver]

The STC for screaming Eagle (latest one purchased from Mooney) specifies the fuel set up to be the same as io550N and the range is 25.6 - 27.3 GPH. 

[Txbyker]

I see over 27.5. 

Russ

[Jeff_S]

I've always heard 28 gph for maximum FF, and mine exceeds that by just a bit. Here's a screen shot from a recent flight in Savvy Analysis, you can see the FF line in blue and the number is the last on the list...

[StevenL757]

On 9/28/2017 at 1:17 PM, M20S Driver said:

The STC for screaming Eagle (latest one purchased from Mooney) specifies the fuel set up to be the same as io550N and the range is 25.6 - 27.3 GPH. 

Correct.  27.3 with full throttle and 2700RPM is what the STC states for the IO550N.  Bob Minnis (its author) will recommend as much as 30; given the small intake openings on the Ovation, and the efforts to keep CHTs low during takeoff.  Although others will report setting less, you shouldn't be going much lower than 27.3 in keeping with best-practices / optimal engine management on the Ovation (and 310 Eagle) platforms.

Steve

[StevenL757]

4 hours ago, Godfather said:

Wondering what the consensus is on TO FF for a 310 hp 550.  I’ve had mine at 27.5 but JPI is unwilling to budge on the 26.7 redline.  The STC info states 27.2 but JPI insists it’s a typo. Not really happy with JPI for multiple reasons and I don’t want a blinking light every time I take off. Suggestions?  Anyone know how to get to the setup menu on the edm 900?

There shouldn't be any "consensus".  The 310BHP STC document clearly states the limitations, and unless you have anything to the contrary, JPI should be inputting that data from your initial information sheet (the one you and/or your shop filled out when you submitted the JPI information to them, and then sent the thing back to them for re-calibration).

If your Ovation has a 310BHP STC applied to it, from what documentation are you getting the 26.7 "redline" information?

Steve

[kmyfm20s]

EI would only allow my monitor to be redlined at 27.2 gph per the STC.  I have my FF set at 29.6 gph on sea level take off per the smart minds at APS which my blinking engine monitor lets me know. It bugs me but I always look at it so it might be a good thing. 27.2 gph will give you maximum performance as well as maximum CHT's on take off. Summer time out here it is too hard on the cylinders and I trade some power on the climbs for cool cylinders.

[kortopates]

TCM's spec for metered max fuel flow for the 310 HP IO-550 in the -N configuration is 25.6 - 27.3 GPH (just as @M20S Driver and @StevenL757 pointed out above) and we at Savvy like to 0.5 to 1.0 GPH above the high number yielding a target max FF of 27.8 to 28.3 GPH for exactly the reasons @kmyfm20s cited above, and essentially exactly where @Jeff_S is at. (knowing the kind of summertime flying @kmyfm20s does out of the desert, I can understand exactly why he's pushing his to 2 GPH above). But one gallon above isn't going to rob an appreciable amount of power but it will sure help keep the engine running cooler till you are ready to lean further. We'd really like to see the 310 Ovations in the low 28's GPH. 

Apparently JPI is trying to stick to the middle of the range which makes no sense.  

[carusoam]

Somewhere there is an article written up about the screemin' Eagle.

Their recommendation was to increase the FF as well...

Not sure how to take a magazine article's word, if the STC isn't strong enough...

I asked my mechanic to check my FF settings this year... 27.2gph...  make sure you push the red knob all the way in...

After leaning for taxi, I think he made a point. Check list clearly says mixture in prior to run-up...

Best regards,

-a-

[Godfather]

15 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

There shouldn't be any "consensus".  The 310BHP STC document clearly states the limitations, and unless you have anything to the contrary, JPI should be inputting that data from your initial information sheet (the one you and/or your shop filled out when you submitted the JPI information to them, and then sent the thing back to them for re-calibration).

If your Ovation has a 310BHP STC applied to it, from what documentation are you getting the 26.7 "redline" information?

Steve

In the STC documentation it states 160 lbs per hour in a couple different areas. When I tried to reason with JPI that the stated 27.2 (also in the stc info) is what I wanted it set to they said it was a typo and they would not deviate from 26.7. 

My asking for consensus was to clarify that properly setup it should be above that anyway so why waste my breath and time to send it in.

15 hours ago, kmyfm20s said:

EI would only allow my monitor to be redlined at 27.2 gph per the STC.  I have my FF set at 29.6 gph on sea level take off per the smart minds at APS which my blinking engine monitor lets me know. It bugs me but I always look at it so it might be a good thing. 27.2 gph will give you maximum performance as well as maximum CHT's on take off. Summer time out here it is too hard on the cylinders and I trade some power on the climbs for cool cylinders.

Thank you for this, very helpful. 

13 hours ago, kortopates said:

TCM's spec for metered max fuel flow for the 310 HP IO-550 in the -N configuration is 25.6 - 27.3 GPH (just as @M20S Driver and @StevenL757 pointed out above) and we at Savvy like to 0.5 to 1.0 GPH above the high number yielding a target max FF of 27.8 to 28.3 GPH for exactly the reasons @kmyfm20s cited above, and essentially exactly where @Jeff_S is at. (knowing the kind of summertime flying @kmyfm20s does out of the desert, I can understand exactly why he's pushing his to 2 GPH above). But one gallon above isn't going to rob an appreciable amount of power but it will sure help keep the engine running cooler till you are ready to lean further. We'd really like to see the 310 Ovations in the low 28's GPH. 

Apparently JPI is trying to stick to the middle of the range which makes no sense.  

I’ll make sure the JPI reads 28 on TO. No possible way the company will program a change like that so I’ll just use the blinking light to confirm proper fuel flow has been reached. 

[StevenL757]

You shouldn't have to deal with that.  PM me if you want to discuss, and I can give you a steer in the right direction.

Steve

[buddy]

I have a 310hp Ovation and I have my FF set at 30 and that seems to keep the CHT's a little cooler than when I had it set to 28. Can't help you with your JPI, I have the G1000's.

[kmyfm20s]

The newer POH with the G1000 planes show the normal operating range for FF at 30 gph for the redline. EI wouldn't accept that when I showed it to them.

[StevenL757]

Did they give a reason?

[Godfather]

@kmyfm20s 30 gph redline and that’s for a 2500 redline...

[carusoam]

GFather...

Very interesting observation.  

The green range is 0-30.  There is no red line indicated at the end of the range.

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

22 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Did they give a reason?

Because it wasn't my POH or STC.

[kmyfm20s]

22 hours ago, Godfather said:

@kmyfm20s 30 gph redline and that’s for a 2500 redline...

You are correct it is for 2500rpm not 2700.

[carusoam]

Discussing FF at the Summit with other IO550 users, yesterday...

It is really funny to be discussing using 25/25 when you have 27 available with a strong IO550.

I have only some experience of FT/27.  Mostly limited to getting off the ground.

Best rate and Best angle are FT and 2700, STC.

Cruise Climb is 24" / 2550 rpm, STC.

My FF maxes out at STC documented 27.2.

I start to have to watch temps like CHT and EGT closely on extended climbs at high power settings on warm days...

There is a redline on my CHT gauge (3:1 ship's gauge)

I understand, max FF can be raised by your mechanic without affecting the performance on the other end of the range...

I'm going to collect more data regarding FF, CHT, EGT, climb rate, and OAT...

My annual is coming up.

If JPI can't / won't  set the FF at the higher range, what does EI say?

I'm going to need an updated engine monitor one day...

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

There is one disadvantage as I understand to having a primary instrument replacement engine monitor like I have which is the EI MVP-50. You can not assign user defined redline or yellow limits on the engine monitor it has to follow the POH or an STC. Some non primary replacement monitors you can assign user defined limits from what I understand, I could be mistaken. 

 

[carusoam]

I was looking for the article in MAPA Log...

'Screaming Eagle experience', by Scotty Neal.

I think he covered how he or what was done for him to raise the FF to a higher number.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[kmyfm20s]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I was looking for the article in MAPA Log...

'Screamin Eagle experience', by Scotty Neal.

I think he covered how he or what was done for him to raise the FF to a higher number.

Best regards,

-a-

 

I put that article in the download section a while back.

 

[carusoam]

I must have got that from you...

Easy to read two pager.  Nothing but great experience... and names...and tech details... One after the other...

Unfortunately, I didn't see which FF gauge he was using...

A reference to a JPI 700 and moritz EGT gauge...

31gph during FT /2700rpm climb to maintain temp while climb angel style... keeping CHTs sub 350°F

APS was referenced as the source of the .1 * 310hp = FF  31 gph.

I may have missed a detail or two... my memory isn't that strong.

Is Scotty Neal an MSer?

I hope Mike and Chase are able to read this... (people I met at the M Summit...)

Best regards,

-a-

[Godfather]

Took a look at some of the temps. The 26.7 redline is worthless as I’m not able to keep my cht in check on climb out (working towards 390). Having my mechanic bump it up to 28.5 this week. @carusoam I previously had the jpi 700 / moritz setup and never had an issue running a higher FF.  I find it ironic that this latest and greatest JPI primary has a worthless warning that the factory did not find necessary to implement (15 years ago or recently with the g1000) and has not caused me to fall out of the sky yet...