Flying the east coast

[Dream to fly]

How crazy is it to fly from Allentown PA to Brookhaven NY?  Would NY traffic give VFR at 10K or would they vector me via Poland?  Its been 20 plus years since I flew out there.  I would like to visit family but coming from ND I am finding it a bit challenging  to navigate. 

[gsengle]

They can't give you ten k that's above their airspace.


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[Dream to fly]

I was being figurative sorry.  I realize the surface to 7K.  Just wondering how they would send me.

[gsengle]

Go east at 9k and they can't send you anywhere. It's VFR, go where you want. Now if you want to enter the Bravo that's another matter. Often easiest to just go over. I often just get direct JFK direct destination.


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[201er]

1 hour ago, Dream to fly said:

How crazy is it to fly from Allentown PA to Brookhaven NY?  Would NY traffic give VFR at 10K or would they vector me via Poland?  Its been 20 plus years since I flew out there.  I would like to visit family but coming from ND I am finding it a bit challenging  to navigate. 

Or go under the bravo. Or over. Or through. Just pick one and stay on your toes. Don't speak like Alan or they might not clear you. Fly safe.

Edited July 6, 2017 by 201er

[carusoam]

I go over...  better glide distance and fewer bumps.  A must do flight is the VFR corridor down low. The IR(?) corridor lies above the VFR one...

There are three major airports there with continuous streams of traffic coming and going.  See one jet, there will be nine others in tow....

Do not fly the East River without studying who Correy  Lidel was...  Yankees fans are familiar.

There are so many airport's on the Island (LI) you are always in gliding distance to one...

Schedule the right weekend for a NJMP Fly-in...   (and meet Alan)

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

5 hours ago, 201er said:

Or go under the bravo. Or over. Or through. Just pick one and stay on your toes. Don't speak like Alan or they might not clear you. Fly safe.

Must be nice! Wish I had those options around Atlanta . . . That Bravo goes to 12.5, and Approach's favorite words to me (VFR or IFR, low or high) are "remain clear of the Bravo," T Routes be durned! So I take the half hour detour around the outside. I have yet to be cleared into the Bravo, even when the direct route to my destination is directly over the top of ATL.

[Jeff_S]

Yeah, ATL doesn't like to let folks transit through Bravo.  If you're not headed to a destination underneath it, you're going to get routed around. Heck, even if you ARE going to a destination underneath you'll get forced onto a STAR that swings you out wide one way or the other and then brings you in.  That's when you just decide to cancel IFR and enjoy the scenery from down low for awhile!

[buddy]

I don't think you'll have any problems at 5500 over JFK, that's the altitude there going to give you anyway. I never had any problems dealing with NY just make sure you get a class B clearance.

[gsengle]

I go over...  better glide distance and fewer bumps.  A must do flight is the VFR corridor down low. The IR(?) corridor lies above the VFR one...
There are three major airports there with continuous streams of traffic coming and going.  See one jet, there will be nine others in tow....
Do not fly the East River without studying who Correy  Lidel was...  Yankees fans are familiar.
There are so many airport's on the Island (LI) you are always in gliding distance to one...
Schedule the right weekend for a NJMP Fly-in...   (and meet Alan)
Best regards,
-a-

Never fly the east river fixed wing period :-o


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[201er]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

Never fly the east river fixed wing period :-o

 

Flying a Mooney on the east river period

 

[carusoam]

Spelling is everything...  Cory Lidle

East River = Technical Box Canyon, not an actual box canyon

Knowing the turn radius of your plane is critical.

Flying slowly improves the turn radius.

Steep turns improves your turn radius.

The East river flyway is about 1k' AGL.

Buildings in NYC are taller than 1k'

Learning experience:

• don't fly into a box canyon.
• know your plane's performance characteristics.
• slow flight is closer to the stall limits.
• steep turns raises the stall speed.
• a fully loaded plane is going to have a higher stall speed.
• 1k' off the ground leaves little space for recovery.
• when planning a flight like this, safety margins are everything.

The FAA has printed a two page chart with procedures, frequencies and reporting points... available on line.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/courses/content/79/775/kneeboard.pdf

 

Summary: Hudson River = good.  East River = bad. (Now, requires ATC approval...)

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[neilpilot]

When you fly the East River, just request the Central Park transition.  Then turn west and punch out back over the Hudson river.  

 

 

[carusoam]

Neil,

Do you have some additional detail for the Central Park Transition?

I see some things written about it, but nothing as inviting as an FAA picture/chart/procedure for it.

There is currently a TFR sitting over that area. The POTUS has an Apartment he keeps there. He is in Europe today, but the TFR doesn't seem to come down...

 

Mike,

Did you actually fly around Manhattan (continuous circle around the island) or was that flying near Manhattan?

 

First time/ Last time I flew the East river was in a C152. I started on one edge and probably barely in bounds by the time the 180° turn finished.  Lots of pressure to complete the turn. Low, slow, and close to the ground.

A well calibrated AOAi would be really helpful.

Having family Depending on you, limits the desire to explore box canyons... 

 

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

21 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Mike,

Did you actually fly around Manhattan (continuous circle around the island) or was that flying near Manhattan?

Yeah, full circle. I've done it both with the central park transition and all the way around and through the spuyten duyvil.

[carusoam]

Mike,

In contact with ATC prior to leaving the flyway...(?)

An IR pilot 'naturally' has the skill set to not get stuck in the box.

A VFR newbie hasn't the skill set or the knowledge of their plane. Getting stuck in the box generates pressure to do things that don't work out all the time.

The proximity to LaGuardia prevents VFR free flights up that way...  nothing a little ADSB (out) can't fix... 

Best regards,

-a-

[neilpilot]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Neil,

Do you have some additional detail for the Central Park Transition?

I see some things written about it, but nothing as inviting as an FAA picture/chart/procedure for it.

There is currently a TFR sitting over that area. The POTUS has an Apartment he keeps there. He is in Europe today, but the TFR doesn't seem to come down...

 

I flew the corridor back in 2014.  Departed KCWD, started at the north narrows, and did a 180- past Verrazano.  IIRC when I turned back north, I asked KEWR approach for the East River transition.  Don't recall if I requested a turn over the park or not.  I was prepared to head back up the Hudson if the transition wasn't approved.

Anyway, at some point just past the construction site of the Freedom Tower, I was handed off to Laguardia approach.  Very easy flight, and the turn toward Central Park was the highlight for my passengers.

This was pre-Trump, so no TFR concerns.

 

[Garryowen]

16 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

How crazy is it to fly from Allentown PA to Brookhaven NY?  Would NY traffic give VFR at 10K or would they vector me via Poland?  Its been 20 plus years since I flew out there.  I would like to visit family but coming from ND I am finding it a bit challenging  to navigate. 

ABE VFR direct HWV at 7500' is pretty straight forward. Try to get flight following right out of Allentown to make it even easier. It's fun watching and listening to all of the heavy iron flying under you as they takeoff and land at the big NYC 3 airports.  

Another fun way is flying the routes as mentioned previously. Out of ABE pickup flight following direct to the Tapanzee bridge and fly the Hudson south at 1500 to the Verrazano Bridge (flight following the whole way). At the Verrazano you can either keep going south or if you're more adventurous turn around and head for the east river. 

If continuing south, after the VZ head direct to breezy point and plan to follow the southern shore line east to Brookhaven (ForeFlight screenshot below). Be ready to descend to 500' as you transition under the Bravo of JFK along the beach. Lots of GA going back and forth there so keep your eyes outside. Usually get a climb back up around the Jones Beach monument.

If going up the east river EWR twr (127.85) will hand you off to LGA twr (126.05). Ask LGA for "overhead, THROGS transition eastbound." If they give it to you your route will be as depicted below. Staying over the water it's Brooklyn Bridge-North tip of Roosevelt island-over the tower cab of LGA-south stanchion of the Throgs Neck Bridge-VPLYD-VPJAY-Direct.  If they don't let you go overhead, hang a left (westbound turn) at the North tip of Roosevelt Island over Central Park and go back south or north on the Hudson. Others have already spoken to the challenge of making a u-turn on the east river. I don't recommend it. 

One thing to keep an eye out for when flying around NYC this time of year are the MLB TFRs. For some reason, these are the only ballgame TFRs that are actively enforced.  Meaning ATC will not let you through them. ForeFlight does a good job of depicting them for the appropriate time and location.

Have a great trip. 

[Dream to fly]

Thank you

 

[flyboy0681]

5 hours ago, 201er said:

Flying a Mooney on the east river period

Thanks Mike, reminds me of my yout growing up in Sheepshead Bay.

[flyboy0681]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

Learning experience:

• don't fly into a box canyon.
• know your plane's performance characteristics.
• slow flight is closer to the stall limits.
• steep turns raises the stall speed.
• a fully loaded plane is going to have a higher stall speed.
• 1k' off the ground leaves little space for recovery.
• when planning a flight like this, safety margins are everything.

 

And if things are not looking too good, break the rules and deal with the Feds later regardless of cost. At least you lived to put up a good fight.

[carusoam]

Joe the thing about your request that is a bit fuzzy...

does NY traffic give VFR at 10k'...

1) NY ATC doesn't handle VFR traffic very well on busy days...

2) 10k' isn't a VFR altitude

3) Class B ends at 7k'

4) Leave lots of space over that, because you can...

5) if you go the southern beach route under the shelf... the shelf is at 500' off the beach...

6) warm water this time of year.

7) If you go down in the water, help isn't that far away...

8) summer into fall can be kind of foggy making the low alt routes not very passable.

9) On shore winds generate some interesting weather....rain in the afternoon, tropical style.

 

Are you going IFR or VFR?

If you have IFR experience, everything comes fast and sharp.

If your radio skills aren't fast and sharp.... VFR over the top of NYC is pretty relaxing...

 

The VFR flyways are similar to constantly entering an uncontrolled traffic pattern, announcing and listening and eyes out the window...

Expect a plethora of helicopters...

Fun stuff,

-a-

[par]

Super easy to fly over or through the NY class B. I normally fly from viginia beach to KISP and start my descent over Sandy hook. I'll ask for an early turn direct to KISP and approach is usually accommodating. If they can't clear me for the descent there, they have me fly direct JFK to cross at 5500' and then direct KISP while descending. Very easy to deal with.

[Ben E.]

I flew the corridor back in 2014.  Departed KCWD, started at the north narrows, and did a 180- past Verrazano.  IIRC when I turned back north, I asked KEWR approach for the East River transition.  Don't recall if I requested a turn over the park or not.  I was prepared to head back up the Hudson if the transition wasn't approved. Anyway, at some point just past the construction site of the Freedom Tower, I was handed off to Laguardia approach.  Very easy flight, and the turn toward Central Park was the highlight for my passengers.

This was pre-Trump, so no TFR concerns.

 

 

 

Just to add to this part of the topic, I've done this flight several times in the past year and I always ask for (and have received) clearance into the bravo. I tell ATC when requesting clearance into the bravo for the initial portion of the flight southbound over the Hudson that I want to also fly up the East River and transition over the park back to the Hudson. They say they will work on the East River but clear me into the Bravo to proceed southbound to the VZ bridge. Shortly after my 180 at the VZ bridge they will clear me for the East River and tell me to fly over Governor's Island and transition at my discretion. Then I fly until the Queensboro bridge and make a left. Then turn right back up the east bank of the Hudson. ATC always gives me 1500' and is very good about calling out the helicopters and other fixed wing traffic, including planes in the VFR corridor. In my opinion this is the safer way to do this flight.

 

 

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