peevee Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, EricJ said: Probably some age-related cognitive issues setting in. Doesn't matter how many ratings or how much experience you have when that stuff starts to happen. I didn't see how old the pilot was. I have flown with older ATP pilots and had "the talk" with one that was having trouble seeing the instruments. He knew... It's just hard to admit I think. Quote
kortopates Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, wishboneash said: So the controller read the clearance out one final time even after multiple attempts by the pilot to read back the clearance? I guess the controller was trying to make sure he really got it! That's very strange. It almost seems like the controller isn't sure he got the clearance down and is washing his hands off this guy. I think you may be confusing the "departure" procedure (although they called it "departure clearance") with the IFR clearance. They already stated the pilot had to read back his IFR clearance multiple times. I don't know if your instrument rated or not, but I'll answer as if you were not so anyone that is not will better understand the significance of this. His IFR clearance would have just begun with "Cleared to San Jose Airport via the Riverside Obstacle Departure procedure ..... followed by his route etc. Its the pilots responsibility to have the necessary documentation on board and know how to look the ODP up. We're told he bought charts at the FBO, suggesting he isn't using an iPad with all of this information available to him. So if he bought the approach plates Iam not sure why he couldn't find the ODP in the Takeoff Mins & ODP section or he may simply have forgotten where to find the ODP's. Regardless, he got to the runup area and couldn't look up the ODP and had to ask tower to read him the "departure" = ODP. If you don't have it on board, then tower will read it to us. That's what the report is telling us when they said they read it too him. He simply didn't have it or didn't know how to find it. As peevee says above, this is really not what you would expect from a current ATP rated pilot. Nor should the taxi clearance have been challenging at this airport, although depending on where he was parked,if it was at near the terminal or transient, his clearance would been which taxiway (e.g. H or G) to get on to taxiway A and then all the way to end of A to threshold. Good thing he was departing from a towered field or he may have needed to call FSS to get them to read it. I pasted the ODP below, he was departing from Rwy 9 and in all likelihood upon reaching PDZ he wouldn't be going east but west and would be climbing on course; thus not have to contend with the hold. Regardless though soon as he checked in with SOCAL and was at their MVA they'd be vectoring him on his way. DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 9, climb heading 089° to 1700 then climbing right turn heading 210° to intercept PDZ VORTAC R-093 to PDZ VORTAC, thence … Rwy 27, climb heading 269° to 2200 then climbing left turn direct PDZ VORTAC, thence … Rwy 34, climb heading 344° to 1800 then climbing left turn heading 230° to intercept PDZ VORTAC R-352 to PDZ VORTAC, thence … ... Aircraft departing PDZ VORTAC R-091 CW R-140 and R-231 CW R-280 climb on course. All others climb in holding pattern (hold NE, right turns, 210° inbound) to cross PDZ VORTAC at or above; R-321 CW R-340 7800; All others 7200 or airway MEA. Edited March 10, 2017 by kortopates corrected ODP location is not in the AFD - thanks to Deb Quote
kortopates Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 1 minute ago, peevee said: I didn't see how old the pilot was. I have flown with older ATP pilots and had "the talk" with one that was having trouble seeing the instruments. He knew... It's just hard to admit I think. 83 years old Quote
peevee Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, kortopates said: I think you may be confusing the "departure" procedure (although they called it "departure clearance") with the IFR clearance. They already stated the pilot had to read back his IFR clearance multiple times. I don't know if your instrument rated or not, but I'll answer as if you were not so anyone that is not will better understand the significance of this. His IFR clearance would have just begun with "Cleared to San Jose Airport via the Riverside Obstacle Departure procedure ..... followed by his route etc. Its the pilots responsibility to have the necessary documentation on board and know how to look the ODP up. We're told he bought charts at the FBO, suggesting he isn't using an iPad with all of this information available to him. So he may only have bought the approach plates and not the AFD which has the ODP's or he may simply have forgotten where to find the ODP's. Regardless, he got to the runup area and couldn't look up the ODP and had to ask tower to read him the "departure" = ODP. If you don't have it on board, then tower will read it to us. That's what the report is telling us when they said they read it too him. He simply didn't have it or didn't know how to find it. As peevee says above, this is really not what you would expect from a current ATP rated pilot. Nor should the taxi clearance have been challenging at this airport, although depending on where he was parked,if it was at near the terminal or transient, his clearance would been which taxiway (e.g. H or G) to get on to taxiway A and then all the way to end of A to threshold. Good thing he was departing from a towered field or he may have needed to call FSS to get them to read it. I pasted the ODP below, he was departing from Rwy 9 and in all likelihood upon reaching PDZ he wouldn't be going east but west and would be climbing on course; thus not have to contend with the hold. Regardless though soon as he checked in with SOCAL and was at their MVA they'd be vectoring him on his way. DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 9, climb heading 089° to 1700 then climbing right turn heading 210° to intercept PDZ VORTAC R-093 to PDZ VORTAC, thence … Rwy 27, climb heading 269° to 2200 then climbing left turn direct PDZ VORTAC, thence … Rwy 34, climb heading 344° to 1800 then climbing left turn heading 230° to intercept PDZ VORTAC R-352 to PDZ VORTAC, thence … ... Aircraft departing PDZ VORTAC R-091 CW R-140 and R-231 CW R-280 climb on course. All others climb in holding pattern (hold NE, right turns, 210° inbound) to cross PDZ VORTAC at or above; R-321 CW R-340 7800; All others 7200 or airway MEA. I have not departed a towered field with an odp, do they actually issue it? I have done many uncontrolled fields and it's the pilots responsibility to fly the odp and assumed they will. Center doesn't care. I have not departed an uncontrolled field under a tracon with an odp so I don't know if they issue it either. Quote
wishboneash Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, kortopates said: I think you may be confusing the "departure" procedure (although they called it "departure clearance") with the IFR clearance. They already stated the pilot had to read back his IFR clearance multiple times. I don't know if your instrument rated or not, but I'll answer as if you were not so anyone that is not will better understand the significance of this. His IFR clearance would have just begun with "Cleared to San Jose Airport via the Riverside Obstacle Departure procedure ..... followed by his route etc. etc.. Sorry, I didn't read the original report that carefully. Yes, I am instrument rated and know the difference between an IFR clearance and the departure procedure (DP). So did the pilot read back the DP? It can also apply for VFR operations at many busy airports near class C or class B airspace. Thanks for clarifying :-) Quote
kortopates Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, peevee said: I have not departed a towered field with an odp, do they actually issue it? I have done many uncontrolled fields and it's the pilots responsibility to fly the odp and assumed they will. Center doesn't care. I have not departed an uncontrolled field under a tracon with an odp so I don't know if they issue it either. 1) Towered fields with a TRACON. I can't say for every TRACON, but here in SOCAL that is the norm for the airports I frequent. They will either instruct you to fly the ODP or they provide an alternative such a fly a heading. 2) Non-towered with a TRACON, such as the same airports after the tower is closed. SOCAL doesn't as consistently reference the ODP as the tower does. But as you say, its our responsibility to look it up and fly it since it could be a while before we are talking to a TRACON or ARTCC. 3) uncontrolled field under ARTCC. I agree, I have never seen a center reference an ODP in this case. Its our responsibility to look it up and fly it till center gives us a vector. Edited March 10, 2017 by kortopates Quote
kortopates Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 13 minutes ago, wishboneash said: Sorry, I didn't read the original report that carefully. Yes, I am instrument rated and know the difference between an IFR clearance and the departure procedure (DP). So did the pilot read back the DP? It can also apply for VFR operations at many busy airports near class C or class B airspace. Thanks for clarifying :-) That was pretty easy to miss. I really doubt he was asked to read back the ODP, I have never heard that being done before and I have heard a number of visiting pilots that have needed to ask tower, ground or clearance delivery, to read it too them and that's all they do. Good point about VFR departure procedures at class B & C airports. I haven't done one of those in a long long time VFR, but its a real clearance, at least in Class B, and one that a VFR pilot can't look up so I assume that makes the read back necessary. S r i r a m and a M20J owner from LVK is familiar. I think my wife and I may have met you hiking around Mammoth Lakes area, this would have been many years ago - maybe a decade ago! Hi. Quote
Ron McBride Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 I just learned about he ODP's. I had to look for 5 minutes using wing-x pro to find it. Thanks again to Mooneyspace for teaching me more. Ron 1 Quote
peevee Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 27 minutes ago, N803RM said: I just learned about he ODP's. I had to look for 5 minutes using wing-x pro to find it. Thanks again to Mooneyspace for teaching me more. Ron They are very poorly documented IMO. With digital data becoming more pervasive it would be nice to chart them instead of hiding them in the af/d Quote
wishboneash Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, kortopates said: That was pretty easy to miss. I really doubt he was asked to read back the ODP, I have never heard that being done before and I have heard a number of visiting pilots that have needed to ask tower, ground or clearance delivery, to read it too them and that's all they do. Good point about VFR departure procedures at class B & C airports. I haven't done one of those in a long long time VFR, but its a real clearance, at least in Class B, and one that a VFR pilot can't look up so I assume that makes the read back necessary. S r i r a m and a M20J owner from LVK is familiar. I think my wife and I may have met you hiking around Mammoth Lakes area, this would have been many years ago - maybe a decade ago! Hi. I have been issued ODPs in Southern California (I think I got one at San Luis Obispo recently). I always look that up for any airport especially if I am going IFR and more so if taking off from an uncontrolled airfield. Re: Mammoth Lakes, I think you might have me confused with someone else. I have never trekked in that area. Still, good to get acquainted on MS! 1 Quote
peevee Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 I haven't messed with it yet, but I'm curious if the ifd540 has the odp procedure in the database. Keep forgetting to look. I fly them very very rarely. Quote
kortopates Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 16 minutes ago, peevee said: I haven't messed with it yet, but I'm curious if the ifd540 has the odp procedure in the database. Keep forgetting to look. I fly them very very rarely. I can't say with certainty, but if they did, Avidyne would be the first to do so. So far to my knowledge only charted departure procedures are included in the database. You have to manually set up the ODP's in your flight plans. Quote
carusoam Posted March 10, 2017 Report Posted March 10, 2017 Following along... I know where the DPs are in my paper procedure books. Takes a fair amount of memory skill to follow properly while getting into the ifr system... As of today, I know where they are in WingX too! Hiding under a tab for charts, airport diagrams and other important things... Adding a DP to the existing route seemed to be an option in WingX. I will have to explore that more later... at least it is readily available... no going back to the FBO to buy a book. Would still need to see if the waypoints can be inserted in the KLN 90B for proper navigation guidance.... have to look that up later as well... There is always something new to relearn, every day... Best regards, -a- Quote
MHemperly Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 On 3/9/2017 at 5:21 PM, N803RM said: I just learned about he ODP's. I had to look for 5 minutes using wing-x pro to find it. Thanks again to Mooneyspace for teaching me more. Ron So the way I have approached all my flight training is the old school way of paper charts, plotting, plugging in winds with e6b and becoming familiar with the af/d and all it has to offer and then into instrument training you learn even more about these publications as well as the ifr low/high charts and TPP for odp's, sid's, stars etc... I found that learning these well made it easier for me to apply it with my EFB. But I had to spend a lot of time getting familiar with my app (foreflight). I still spend time with the app planning flights that I may never make just so I stay fresh when it comes to being able to find the information I need. IMO, anytime flying IFR a pilot would only be doing himself a favor by looking up ALL available Information on the departure and arrival airports (not to mention it's required). And being familiar with the apps you use really makes it easy. Mike Quote
MHemperly Posted March 14, 2017 Report Posted March 14, 2017 On 3/9/2017 at 5:52 PM, peevee said: They are very poorly documented IMO. With digital data becoming more pervasive it would be nice to chart them instead of hiding them in the af/d You mean TPP right? It would be pretty sweet to have a SID "like" chart with the ODP. Paint a picture in your head before departure. Mike Quote
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