New Member, Very Close to Buying C Model

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, 3914N said:

Not to hijack this thread, but is this common? Engines that sit for a while make some metal and then settle down?

I was under the impression that once the engine starts making metal,  it usually doesn't stop. 

Regular running seems to clean them up quite a bit. But of course, it doesn't put any metal back. But regular use will often keep it from making any more.

[JKSmith]

26 minutes ago, 3914N said:

Not to hijack this thread, but is this common? Engines that sit for a while make some metal and then settle down?

I was under the impression that once the engine starts making metal,  it usually doesn't stop. 

Minimal is the key word. I should have said significantly less. 

 

Im not sure how a mechanic can say your compressions are excellent but you may need a new engine in the same sentence. Especially on a 300smoh engine. 

 

I believe Sitting hurt it but not that much 

[cctsurf]

1 hour ago, 3914N said:

Not to hijack this thread, but is this common? Engines that sit for a while make some metal and then settle down?

I was under the impression that once the engine starts making metal,  it usually doesn't stop. 

Mike Busch calmed me down immensely after listening to his webinar about finding metal in the filter.  There are good procedures to deal with this, it can usually be diagnosed without a tear down, fairly economically.

 

[carusoam]

Pay attention for just a moment...

planes that sit can be OK.

Just one issue...

Some cams were made better than others.

If the metal is coming from the cam, this is not a good sign.

The hardened surface is very thin.  It only takes a small amount of rust to aid in wearing through this layer. Once through the hardened layer, the soft material underneath is quick to be eroded. The lifter riding on the cam is also prone to losing material making a rough surface riding on the soft surface of the cam... reminds me of tooth decay

There is plenty written about how to inspect the cam around here.

Know that a worn cam is essentially reason for a tear down.  Tear downs lead to the decision of what is right for the owner.  Often an OH follows the findings... some engines don't require as much work as others to remove a cam.  They are in different places on some engines...

Good luck with what you find. Keep both eyes open...

Uh dad, now that I have your daughter and your plane, can we talk cams..? 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited January 26, 2017 by carusoam

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks to all.  I am 35 Mooney minutes from Maxwell according to Foreflight.  I just now received the logs via email.  It will take a while to go through them.  We have agreed on a price and he is working on getting ferried to my local guy.  I will probably change it maxwell once I talk to naxwell and the guy at dugosh.

Alex, I remember you.  You rode with me to get fuel in my 140 one time.

To all.  I dont know if I mentioned it but I have been through the buying experience before with my souped up Cessna 140 I bought some years ago.  I did the PPI THEN AND THE PLANE WAS Sqwauk free as I suspected.  

One other thing.  I have a great instructor that taught me to fly in an Aeronca Champ 25 years ago.  He has owned Mooneys and has lots of teaching time in them.  He told me today that it was going to be easier to fly the Mooney than the taildragger I am now in.  

I look forward to further discussion with all you guys (and gals?)

[Htwjr]

You sir are purchasing the best value in all of general aviation.  My considered opinion after much research and 3 1/2 years of ownership.  I am a big fan of speed, efficiency and simplicity and the C model fits the bill like no other.  140-145kts,  good useful load,  less than 10gph,  manual gear.  What's not to like?   Congratulations on your purchase and I hope you enjoy you C as much as I have enjoyed mine.

[cliffy]

See my post on "Yesterday's Flight KTUS" to see what to expect on a C model. 

Dugosh has changed hands a couple of times in the last couple of years. I've been there and looked in on the shop when visiting Mooney. Can't say how things are now as I have no recent info.

DM is the Oracle of Mooneys if you can get it there.

If not- be sure to check the tail hinge bolts for wear, do a gear swing to make sure all is well (a gear over center torque check is mandatory-if your A&P doesn't have the tools for the over center torque check stop right there and find one that does. Not to demean your A&PP pick but this is THE one item that sets a Mooney mech apart from the run of the mill A&P. Does he and can he do a torque check properly?)

Check the bottom of the spar between the wheel wells and the fuselage for loose and smoking rivets.

Fill the tanks and let sit all night to check for leaks

You really need to remove the sidewalls inside and check the fuselage tubing for rust under the windows. At the same time spray water on the outside of the windows and check for leaks. 

Also mandatory to remove rear seat bottom and open inspection holes to look inside seat box for corrosion on the spar caps. Also along the floor in front of the rear seat (spilled drinks cause corrosion on the face of the spar there). 

While on jacks check the free play of the nose gear steering. 10 degrees either side of center is OK much more and the linkage right at the top of the nose gear will be found to be loose and worn. Easy to see while on jacks. 

Make sure you check all the model and serial numbers on data plates of all the big stuff to match the log books and the TCDS, like, engine, prop, actual data plate on the airplane, all the radios, I even check mags by reading the data plates and checking logs. Planes have been found with the wrong engines, props that don't match the logs (gear up unrecorded?), radios swapped out, etc. Had one that had 2 ADFs in it (control head was there) but no remote radio unit in the airplane.

Check every light, radio and all functions, lever, knob, switch, everything that moves for proper operation. VOT/VOR check. Talk to someone on each radio. Mark it down as you do it so you don't miss anything. Check the gear warning horn and stall warning horn, those have been missed on prebuys.   

This is not an all inclusive list It just hits the bigger items I've found. 

Half the fun of owning a plane is in the buying. Don't make it a gamble.

As I tell everyone I know buying an airplane- trust no one selling an airplane and there are ALWAYS things wrong with every airplane no matter how good the owner says he was on maintenance. The owner may not know it's broken as he never uses it or is just ignorant of how it should work. It's just the way it is. Make it a game of hide and seek to keep your sanity. They  hide, you seek, make it a game. Take no chances, check everything. 

I have a recent post on the prebuy checking also somewhere on this board. Search it out. 

When all done- pictures, pictures , pictures HERE!

[rainman]

I live near Dugosh, and David is still there running the shop, now as part owner. So our planes are in good hands there. I do however like the idea of having Maxwell do the pre-buy inspection just because a fresh set of eyes can sometimes see things that have been missed. Also, since you're close to him, he would be able to follow up on non-airworthiness things and do your annuals down the road if you purchase the plane.

[MBDiagMan]

Okay, here is the latest:

I spoke with with the main man at Dugosh who knows this plane well since it is hangared on the field and he has maintained it for almost 30 years.  He feels extremely confident that the aircraft is in great condition including his confidence that the tanks don't leak at all.  The worst thing he could say about the plane is that the interior is old with worn carpet and seats.  I noticed that the interior was slightly worn, but it looked decent, not bad enough to warrant a new interior IMHO.  I have pictures of the logs and his name is in the logs for the tank work and much of the work over that time.  He echoed what many of you have said.  He said that the plane is in great, solid condition, but it is always a good idea to put a different set of eys on it.   He said that Maxwell would be good or my local guy with Mooney experience would be okay too.  I will inquire as to whether or not my local guy is equipped for the torque test of the gear and make up my mind.

I did learn from the Dugosh guy that the plane has a 201 windshield and some modifications associated with that, but it does not have a 201 cowl.  He went through the other speed mods which included flush fuel doors, gap seals and some work on the tail section that I did not completely understand.

An annual at Maxwell costs $2,095 and a prebuy $1,450.  The plane was annualed in August so it sounds like the difference of $645 would be worth it.  I am currently an aircraft owner, so I fully understand that these numbers are not what the final cost might be.

My offer for the plane has been accepted with prebuy inspection pending before purchase of course.

BTW, Up until now, I have not been concerned about the upcoming ADS-B requirement, since With my Cessna 140, I just figured that I would be staying out Bravo and Charlie airspace.  With my mission changing I will need it come 2020.  What kind of expen$e is everyone planning on come 2019?

[Mcstealth]

On January 25, 2017 at 3:47 PM, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks for the comments.  Anyone know about Digosh in Kerrville as a good prebuy resource?

Regardless of the existing AP or company, always choose an un-interested third party for the pre buy inspection. That is just smart business. If you can afford a full Maxwell pre-buy and then turn it into an annual, I would ask you to consider that direction.

Yes Dugosh did retain some of the original mechanics. Yes they do service all makes and models now. I have not heard any complaints.

Welcome to the forum

David

 

[carusoam]

The nice thing about a plane with a long standing history...

The chances of a failed PPI are less than other planes.  

- There is nothing less comfortable than spending money to not buy a plane.

- There isn't a better investment than a failed PPI.  Still not very comforting.

As for 2020 compliance.  There are threads on that topic and the transponders people are Installing and the challenges they are having and the hardware that is becoming available...  2020 is coming and the answers keep getting better!

Best regards,

-a-

[Mcstealth]

6 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Okay, here is the latest:

With my mission changing I will need it come 2020.  What kind of expen$e is everyone planning on come 2019?

The 430 in it is non waas?

Edited January 27, 2017 by Mcstealth

[MBDiagMan]

I don't know for sure if it is WAAS.  I thought that it had to be WAAS to fly approaches with it.  It wouldn't be worth much without WAAS.

[ArtVandelay]

I don't know for sure if it is WAAS.  I thought that it had to be WAAS to fly approaches with it.  It wouldn't be worth much without WAAS.

LPV approach requires WAAS, it gives you vertical guidance.

[Mcstealth]

1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

I don't know for sure if it is WAAS.  I thought that it had to be WAAS to fly approaches with it.  It wouldn't be worth much without WAAS.

Can't answer your first question intelligently without knowing that answer. Please ask. 

[MBDiagMan]

I will indeed ask.  Thanks for the help.

[carusoam]

Bone up on the value of WAAS and non-WAAS.  The higher accuracy of WAAS allows for vertical guidance.  The non-WAAS doesn't.  

Generally speaking, the accuracy difference is like a VOR approach vs. an ILS approach.  Neither would matter if you are a VFR only pilot.

Not all non-WAAS GPSs are the same. Some are not valid for horizontal guidance for approaches.

Sounds like a history lesson is needed when buying old GPSs.  WAAS makes it easier to identify a more valuable GPS than all the non-WAAS.

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

Having a WAAS GPS also makes the upgrade to ADSB Out much less expensive.

[MBDiagMan]

I am very familiar with WAAS and the need for it.  What I am NOT familiar with is ADS-B.   Also What I don't know is whether or not the 430 in the aircraft is WAAS or not.  I would expect that it would be WAAS since the plane is otherwise equipped and certified for instrument flight.  I will research this point later today hopefully so I can get more information from you guys.   Your help is greatly appreciated.

[rbridges]

http://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/14407/how-can-i-tell-if-a-g430-or-g1000-has-waas-or-not

 

it should say on boot up. 

[gsxrpilot]

If it is a WAAS GPS, then your path the ADSB compliance (which is only ADSB Out) is pretty easy.  The Garmin GTX 330ES can be had used for $2000 with installation often under $500. ADSB requires a WAAS source and your 430W would be sufficient.  

There are other benefits that can be had from ADSB In such as traffic and weather. That can all be done with a portable such as a Stratus receiver and ForeFlight on your iPad for much less then panel mounted solutions.  Or you can keep spending and have it all in the panel, in and out, both bands, etc.

But if you've got a WAAS GPS, you're probably only $2500 away from ADSB compliance.

[rbridges]

If you don't have a waas gps, there are also "all in one" options such as the stratus transponder. They include ads-b out and a waas position source. The downside is you don't get the approach capabilities of having a waas gps, but is considerably less expensive than a waas upgrade and ads-b out source.

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/stratusesg?utm_source=google_shopping&m=simple&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=radios+and+scanners&adpos=1o1&creative=74939041702&device=t&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=COuW6rP45NECFQZDhgodxiYIxg

[carusoam]

Sometimes some knowledge of antennae can be helpful.  The WAAS antenna is different than the non-WAAS version.  This could be helpful from the outside without needing to turn the radio on.

It is not possible to say if an airplane has one WAAS navigator the other should be WAAS too.  All that is needed(?) is one. The second is like a spare tire, a small skinny get you home kind of device...

Best regards,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

Okay, in examining the aircraft logs I learned it is equipped with a 430W with a GA35 antenna.

I am currently awaiting the seller to agree to ferry the plane to Longview for prebuy.

[MBDiagMan]

Okay, the seller is having a meeting tomorrow morning to come up with a plan to ferry the plane to Longview.  You guys reccomendation to take it to Maxwell is being listened to.  It was annualed in August, but I am going to spend the additional $645 for an annual, if the prebuy portion goes well of course.

thanks for all your comments and encouragement.  I will continue posting progress in this thread.