ADSB and iPads...

[cnoe]

Also, if you are not familiar with these apps, take each one for a test drive. Both have a 30 day trial subscription. I had both running on my iPads for a couple of years and ForeFlight never clicked with me. I am on Garmin Pilot and happy with the functionality.


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In a recent unrelated thread it was indicated that Garmin Pilot lacks the functionality to load approaches into one's flight plan for display on the main moving-map page. There was some mention of a Garmin liability fear if a pilot used the feature to fly an approach. Can you confirm this to be true; I still find it hard to believe?

For me the lack of approaches in my flight plan would be a non-starter and is one of Foreflight's most valuable features (for situational awareness).



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[Marauder]

In a recent unrelated thread it was indicated that Garmin Pilot lacks the functionality to load approaches into one's flight plan for display on the main moving-map page. There was some mention of a Garmin liability fear if a pilot used the feature to fly an approach. Can you confirm this to be true; I still find it hard to believe?

For me the lack of approaches in my flight plan would be a non-starter and is one of Foreflight's most valuable features (for situational awareness).



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Not sure if it is a liability concern but it sure isn't there. I suspect it may have more to do with the certified box control and the interface restrictions due to the certified box drives the database currency. Be curious if FF will allow you to upload the approach way points back into the navigators.

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[cnoe]

Be curious if FF will allow you to upload the approach way points back into the navigators.

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I believe that's precisely what the FlightStream 210 does; I don't know how it could effectively delete individual waypoints from the flightplan.

Perhaps someone else with a 210 who uses Foreflight can chime in?


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[cnoe]

It's an interesting question but I'd be willing to bet that using a FS210 Foreflight would upload its current IFR approach procedure into a GNS430/530 (with an expired database) as long as the (expired) GNS database still contained the waypoints or fixes. It probably wouldn't pass legal muster even though it is essentially the "current" data.


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[Bennett]

Avionics is like crack. I WANT a Flightstream 210 for the single feature of flightplan sharing but am having a hard time of justifying the ~$1,500 installed cost for that alone. 90%+ of my flights don't include Victor Airways in the clearance and when I DO get them it's easy enough to simply copy the necessary waypoints from Foreflight into my GNS manually. And as NextGen gets rolling I expect to see even more "direct" clearances. Did I mention that I really WANT a 210?

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The Flightstream 210 is a great addition to my panel. The GTNs and ForeFlight (mini 4, portrait) all are linked. And traffic and weather ADS- are available on all three units. I like that ForeFlight asks if you want to couple the units when you set up a Direct To on the GTN 750. For what it is worth, I have an AERA 796 in an AirGizmo panel mount that while coupling flight plans, displays XM weather rather than FIS-B weather. I just find advantages in maintaining an XM subscription.

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[KLRDMD]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

Forgot to mention that if you installed a FlightStream 210 at the same time, you will be able to upload and download flightplans from either ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot to the 430W you have. Why this is nice is that you don't have Victor airways in your 430W database. This will allow you to load them on the app and upload the routing to the 430W. Cool feature.

 

That's where I started. I had a Garmin 530W, 430W, 330ES and GDL88 and wanted to be able to enter flight plans wirelessly so was looking to add a Flightstream 210. It turned out the software on my Garmin boxes was old and wouldn't support the 210 so I was looking at a fair amount of $$ to get the software up to date so the 210 would work.

Then I stared thinking, the Garmin 430 and 530 are getting pretty long in the tooth, the 430 was introduced almost 20 years ago in 1997. The last upgrade to either 530 or 430 was the addition of WAAS in 2006, a decade ago.

Right now, the 430W & 530Ws are still bringing a decent amount on the used market but I think that will start to fall before much longer. For a couple thousand dollars more all-in than upgrading the software on the 530/430 and installing the 210, I could pull the 530W/430W/330ES/GDL88 and install Avidyne 540/440/330/100 and have the latest boxes with WiFi and Bluetooth on both boxes, a bluetooth keyboard, touchscreens, knobs & buttons, forward looking terrain, multi-touch, graphical airway building, GeoFill - and the 540/440 require very little labor as for the most part they are slide in replacements for the 530/430.

Personally, I think the Avidynes are superior boxes to even the 650/750 but there are plenty die hard Garmin fans here that can't fathom why anyone would buy anything other than Garmin. They'll predictably be along soon. Look at all the available hardware, look at the feature sets and ease of use of them, look at purchase and install costs and make your own decision.

[ArtVandelay]

You should check your states tax laws. In Florida you are taxed on the purchase price but not on aircraft maintenance, so the upgrade should be separate from the purchase to save taxes.

[kortopates]

On 11/5/2016 at 8:22 PM, gsxrpilot said:

BTW... ForeFlight now has every public airport in the world in its standard database. It's passed up Garmin Pilot for international flying, if you ask me. But it certainly is a feature race and I'm sure neither Garmin nor ForeFlight are slowing down in that race.

 

Not at all true Paul, Foreflight makes no such claim.  What they did do was introduce vector graphics to provide a world map - finally. Its a great start but something that Garmin Pilot has always had; except for very large airport database which appears much larger than other base product.  I for one, also commend them on integrating airport diagrams into world map. That is very slick feature. But Foreflight's international planning capability is still in its infancy unlike Garmin pilot. Just look at their IFR nav-data charting options. Its limited to the US and Canada; the latter for another $100 (which is very reasonable). It takes much more than a world map to support flying. So far Garmin Pilot is the only iPad app that uses Jepp nav-data and therefore can provide the most complete and current nav-data for almost any country you want to add support for. Give Foreflight more time though and I am sure they will eventually get there too. I prefer the Garmin interface, but the more successful apps there are the more innovation we all will benefit by.

[kortopates]

16 hours ago, cnoe said:

It's an interesting question but I'd be willing to bet that using a FS210 Foreflight would upload its current IFR approach procedure into a GNS430/530 (with an expired database) as long as the (expired) GNS database still contained the waypoints or fixes. It probably wouldn't pass legal muster even though it is essentially the "current" data.


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I haven't tried it, but a pre-requisite of enabling the cross-fill capability between Garmin boxes is that they both have to be using identical databases.  For cross-filling between the Garmin Pilot ipad app and the Garmin panel units you have to load the ipad with jepp nav-data to essentially sync  the ipad DB with the avionics DB. Don't know how its handled in Foreflight other than I am sure both units must be communicating with the same database versions. That seems very logical and reasonable to ensure your certified GPS isn't allowed to become corrupted or broken in flight by allowing our ipads to pass unrecognized data to them. 

 

17 hours ago, Marauder said:

Be curious if FF will allow you to upload the approach way points back into the navigators.

I seriously doubt it. Sync'ing is at the flight plan level only. A string of waypoints in the flight plan is merely a series of Lat/Longs that box calculates distance and heading between and primarily just has to model how to turn based on whether its a "fly over" or "fly by" waypoint. Approaches are much more complicated than a series of waypoints and there are many different kinds of approach waypoints since in the most simplistic terms they are are 3 dimensional and have lots of other approach considerations such as meeting criteria to ARM the approach arriving at the FAF etc.. Just try deleting certain waypoints out of an approach - editing of approaches is very limited. What you can do is select an approach and an IAF. You can then activate it by going to direct to any way point outside of the FAF but you can't edit an approach like you can a route. That would break them and likely create discontinuities (a term the old CNX480's used) . 

It seems very reasonable though that if our ipad allowed us to select an approach and where to start it within limits, that could be passed to the certified GPS. But I'd expect all the limit checking would be redundant with the certified GPS probably preventing the practicality of us seeing it.

17 hours ago, cnoe said:

For me the lack of approaches in my flight plan would be a non-starter and is one of Foreflight's most valuable features (for situational awareness).

 I am puzzled by this. WingX also has this feature which is one I use but I never saw any value it the feature. In my ipad app, I have the route loaded, typically just as I filed it to an IAF to start the approach and nothing more after that than the airport.  Once I have loaded the approach on the panel GPS I'll also have the geo-referenced approach plate loaded loaded on the ipad showing my location on the approach plate. How would loading the specific approach waypoints on the iPad help? They are already all shown on the plate with my position so I can only see the value of the specific waypoints sequenced on the ipad if the ipad wasn't already displaying the chart with my position. My nav data for time to the next waypoint, track info etc is all on the panel GPS. Frankly I am too busy flying the approach to use the ipad for anything more than displaying my geo-referenced approach plate with position at this point. 

Edited November 7, 2016 by kortopates

[kortopates]

15 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

That's where I started. I had a Garmin 530W, 430W, 330ES and GDL88 and wanted to be able to enter flight plans wirelessly so was looking to add a Flightstream 210. It turned out the software on my Garmin boxes was old and wouldn't support the 210 so I was looking at a fair amount of $$ to get the software up to date so the 210 would work.

The s/w updates from Garmin are free. Shops are allowed to charge money for their minimal time to upload the new firmware and print you out a new copy of the garmin AFMS for your POH. But of all the avionics shops I have worked with not one has ever charged me a penny to do so. I'd bet any shop selling and installing a FS210 would have done this automatically as a matter of course. No one purchasing a new Flight Stream is likely going to have the latest firmware on their GPS to support any new product interfaces including Flightstream.

15 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Then I stared thinking, the Garmin 430 and 530 are getting pretty long in the tooth, the 430 was introduced almost 20 years ago in 1997. The last upgrade to either 530 or 430 was the addition of WAAS in 2006, a decade ago.

Although still very capable boxes, I agree the GNS series is getting long in the tooth. But to suggest there hasn't been any upgrades to them is false. They are still actively supported devices with updates every year. We've seen very recent upgrades for LP approaches a number of times (due to changing requirments from the FAA) as well as enhancements to support the final ADS/B position source requirements so they can be used to provide position source to an ADS/B out device. There is still only one WAAS approach type that the GNS series can not fly that the newer GTN boxes can, the RF leg approaches. Last I heard the Avidynes do not support RF leg approaches either. I wouldn't worry though, as they are currently very rare for now.  

I certainly understand the appeal to upgrade with minimal install cost that doesn't require re-wiring. And of course I think Garmin really blew it by not doing what Avidyne simply did. In my case I installed new GTN's because I wanted to clean up the wiring for a new G500 install and I didn't want to spend the money on cleaning up and re-wiring my old GNS boxes & AP after so many modifications over the years.

Edited November 7, 2016 by kortopates

[Amelia]

I've flown my '80 231 for nearly 30 years, and have had it higher than fl180 exactly twice. Routinely fly in the teens, though, when I can find anything but ferocious headwinds. So glad to find this discussion, because 2020 approacheth quickly.

Being short and pudgy, and thus very close to the panel, I found no way to mount a standard iPad without obstructing my view or interfering with the landing flare. I am pleased as punch, therefore, with an iPad mini (running FlyQ) mounted horizontally on the yoke with one of those X-back Ram mounts. The X-mount's exposure to airflow is helpful, as I haven't had the ipad overheat and shut down since I got the yoke mount.

[cnoe]

You've constructed three well-constructed posts Paul and have given me more to consider.

Regarding the cross-fill between FF and Garmin databases it's very possible that they are both validated by perhaps a date code but I don't believe that FF employs Jepp databases. They certainly don't offer us any ability to use Jepp's approach plates and there's no optional Jepp downloads with the 28-day updates. The one thing I'm fairly certain about is that Jepp isn't giving their data to FF for free. It does indeed make me wonder how this issue is reconciled between the units.

And in your reply to Chris, I realize I didn't think about his original comment in the way he obviously meant it. On re-reading it he seems to be curious about whether the actual waypoints could be ADDED into a certified unit from FF even if they didn't previously exist. I agree that is very unlikely. Then you caused me to think about the fact that approach waypoints are 3-dimensional in the certified box which I hadn't considered. Foreflight doesn't provide any vertical guidance so obviously their approach waypoints are much less critical. I can state that if you alter the approach (i.e. delete a fix) in FF then the "approach" is removed from the flight plan though the individual waypoints remain.

Regarding my statement about lack of approaches being a non-starter you made me think about it more fully, which brought up a few more questions... Like you I don't employ FF or the iPad to provide me with true guidance during the approach, but also like you I do find it comforting to see my position geo-referenced on-screen for simple redundancy. My question is "does Garmin Pilot super-impose the approach plate over the moving map like FF or are you looking only at the plate"? In FF you can choose between the plate alone or having it super-imposed on the map, and if you choose the latter you continue to get all the traffic displayed as you reference the chart/map combo. I will concede that having the individual waypoints highlighted on-screen is not critical since you can indeed see them on the geo-referenced plate, but having them listed in my flight plan does provide another level of redundancy in the unlikely situation where I lose ship's-power and HAVE to make an approach due to a mechanical issue. I'd much rather follow a point-to-point flight plan approach than a simple geo-referenced plate in the event of an avionics failure (if the proverbial s**t hit the fan). I believe this is where Foreflight shines. Please let me/us know if GP can simultaneously display traffic and an approach plate.

Lastly, I have had my software updated (for free) on my GNS at least three times. I applaud Garmin for that. But it's a shame that they still nickel and dime us on the obstacle and/or terrain databases. It would be a nice gesture if they would at least offer an occasional free update for the obstacles. It's not required by the regs so more people would likely fly with current data if they did provide it for free.

Oh hell, it just popped up that there are three more replies to this thread, so likely everything above is moot now. I better check...

[M016576]

Nickel and Diming in aviation.

initially I wanted to blame foreflight for going to a subscription model in 2009.

then I remembered, it's more Garmin's fault for their NavData/obstacles/terrain for their GPS's!

but actually, precedence was set by Jeppesen first for their charts (and later navdata).

Then I realized it's the FAA; with their mandatory inspections!

no... it goes further back than that- its Lycoming and Continental... thoss things nickel and dime me out of oil AND AVGAS!

wait... I got it: it's Mooney's fault.  That entire thing has been doing nothing but nickel and diming me since day one!!!

But seriously- foreflight and Garmin play so well together through the flightstream because they both love to (over)-charge pilots.  Enemy of my enemy and all.  At least that's my theory. 

Edited November 7, 2016 by M016576

[cnoe]

Nickel and Diming in aviation.
initially I wanted to blame foreflight for going to a subscription model in 2009.
then I remembered, it's more Garmin's fault for their NavData/obstacles/terrain for their GPS's!
but actually, precedence was set by Jeppesen first for their charts (and later navdata).
Then I realized it's the FAA; with their mandatory inspections!
no... it goes further back than that- its Lycoming and Continental... thoss things nickel and dime me out of oil AND AVGAS!
wait... I got it: it's Mooney's fault.  That entire thing has been doing nothing but nickel and diming me since day one!!!
But seriously- foreflight and Garmin play so well together through the flightstream because they both love to (over)-charge pilots.  Enemy of my enemy and all.  At least that's my theory. 

You funny!

But let me just say... after I bought my J three years ago I wanted to update my Garmin's 5-year old obstacle database (believing a lot of new towers had been built during that time). So after having purchased my Jeppesen Skybound data programmer and database subscription I discovered that my GNS's other datacard could NOT be updated (obstacles & terrain) without purchasing another PROPRIETARY programmer from Garmin (retailing for $199 while the Jepp programmer was only ~$50). After shopping around I bought the Garmin unit from Aircraft Spruce for $194.08 delivered. Add $50 for the actual data and I'm all in for $244.08 (all in the name of safety).

Fast-forward 2 years and now miraculously Garmin's price on the programmers drops to $69 retail ($65 street price). So yeah, I feel like I was gouged (by 288% in fact).

I'll get over it eventually.


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[DMJones]

I just got off the phone with the Avionics guys, and it's amusing to me when I start talking about replacing stuff, their response if something like "why would you want to do that, isn't your stuff working?"

I suppose that's an indication that they're not going to try and sell me on something I don't need.  As opposed to everyone on here.  

Seriously, it looks like I'm on the right path with the 345, and the Slipstream.  More to follow...

[Marauder]

I just got off the phone with the Avionics guys, and it's amusing to me when I start talking about replacing stuff, their response if something like "why would you want to do that, isn't your stuff working?"
I suppose that's an indication that they're not going to try and sell me on something I don't need.  As opposed to everyone on here.  
Seriously, it looks like I'm on the right path with the 345, and the Slipstream.  More to follow...

More likely, they are extremely busy and are putting you off for now!


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[Marauder]

You funny!

But let me just say... after I bought my J three years ago I wanted to update my Garmin's 5-year old obstacle database (believing a lot of new towers had been built during that time). So after having purchased my Jeppesen Skybound data programmer and database subscription I discovered that my GNS's other datacard could NOT be updated (obstacles & terrain) without purchasing another PROPRIETARY programmer from Garmin (retailing for $199 while the Jepp programmer was only ~$50). After shopping around I bought the Garmin unit from Aircraft Spruce for $194.08 delivered. Add $50 for the actual data and I'm all in for $244.08 (all in the name of safety).

Fast-forward 2 years and now miraculously Garmin's price on the programmers drops to $69 retail ($65 street price). So yeah, I feel like I was gouged (by 288% in fact).

I'll get over it eventually.


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Considering the source of all their data is NOAA/FAA and is free to them, no tears are being shed by me. Except maybe for their work on the georeference overlay for SafeTaxi and the charts.


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[KLRDMD]

7 hours ago, kortopates said:

The s/w updates from Garmin are free. Shops are allowed to charge money for their minimal time to upload the new firmware and print you out a new copy of the garmin AFMS for your POH. But of all the avionics shops I have worked with not one has ever charged me a penny to do so. I'd bet any shop selling and installing a FS210 would have done this automatically as a matter of course. No one purchasing a new Flight Stream is likely going to have the latest firmware on their GPS to support any new product interfaces including Flightstream.

The shop on my field was absolutely charging for the software upgrades and not an insignificant amount of money either. Maybe that was all labor time, but it was quite a bit. This shop isn't known for working well with pricing, everything is full retail and all labor seems to take three times what I think it should.

I had someone else do the avionics swap out for me. It is now done, and overall for a very fair price, I believe.

[cnoe]

FYI, the software on my GNS530W was updated last week during bi-annual IFR pitot-static-transponder tests. IIRC there are 2 firmware updates, one to the GPS side and the other for (radios/nav?). All they had to do was pull out one of the datacards in the front of the unit and reboot with another datacard; it was super simple. It took less than 5 minutes total for the non-gps update (my gps firmware was still the most recent version). Even if you're charged a quarter-hour for tech time this shouldn't cost more than $25-$30 tops.


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[KLRDMD]

14 minutes ago, cnoe said:

FYI, the software on my GNS530W was updated last week during bi-annual IFR pitot-static-transponder tests. IIRC there are 2 firmware updates, one to the GPS side and the other for (radios/nav?). All they had to do was pull out one of the datacards in the front of the unit and reboot with another datacard; it was super simple. It took less than 5 minutes total for the non-gps update (my gps firmware was still the most recent version). Even if you're charged a quarter-hour for tech time this shouldn't cost more than $25-$30 tops.

I was quoted many hundreds of dollars to do the software updates on the 530W & 430W.

[cnoe]

That is shameful and if I was based near you I'd be contacting you to get the name of that shop (to avoid).

[gsxrpilot]

MooneySpace - saving Mooney owners money since...

[kortopates]

6 hours ago, cnoe said:

My question is "does Garmin Pilot super-impose the approach plate over the moving map like FF or are you looking only at the plate"? In FF you can choose between the plate alone or having it super-imposed on the map, and if you choose the latter you continue to get all the traffic displayed as you reference the chart/map combo.

Yes, here are two images below that I scraped from an iPad with Garmin Pilot. the first shows the approach plate loaded. Its in split screen mode but that can easily changed to just the map as shown in the second image. The later has the airport diagram instead superimposed on the map along with extended center lines to all runways (another purely optional feature). Sorry there is no traffic on these and the only wx I could overlay was metar info. 

Garmin was the first to utilize the vector graphics for GA since they came out with their portable GPS's and their first panel unit, the MX20 MFD, to display moving maps, charts, weather and traffic when their GPS's lacked the graphics capabilities to do so. So they have been employing this technology long before anyone else in GA. To the best of my knowledge this technology first began in the early 80's pioneered for military mission planners with the advance of fast graphics workstations (e..g. the original SUN workstations). It was revolutionary in the early 80's. And now after 30+ years its made it all the way to masses on cheap tablet and phone apps. Yet I think there are some people that still prefer the old raster graphics.  

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

The shop on my field was absolutely charging for the software upgrades and not an insignificant amount of money either. Maybe that was all labor time, but it was quite a bit. This shop isn't known for working well with pricing, everything is full retail and all labor seems to take three times what I think it should.

I had someone else do the avionics swap out for me. It is now done, and overall for a very fair price, I believe.

Not doubting you, but that's crazy. And surprising since we all know you must be the most savvy guy on Mooney space when it comes to panel upgrades, having purchased and sold more airplanes than I can count and probably doing upgrades on most of them if not all. I'd think the avionics businesses would give you the royal kit glove treatment when you walk in - you must be the last customer any of them would want to loose!  

Look forward to hearing how they work out for you.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, kortopates said:

Not doubting you, but that's crazy. And surprising since we all know you must be the most savvy guy on Mooney space when it comes to panel upgrades, having purchased and sold more airplanes than I can count and probably doing upgrades on most of them if not all. I'd think the avionics businesses would give you the royal kit glove treatment when you walk in - you must be the last customer any of them would want to loose!   Look forward to hearing how they work out for you.

I have had a few airplanes over the years but I have only done avionics upgrades on some. The guy I used to use and loved his work retired and just closed up shop. The shop on my field I never have been impressed with. There is another guy that's excellent at a close airport but he's generally booked out six months or so.