Stalls and slow flight poll/discussion.

[201er]

Just now, Bob - S50 said:

My goal is to not die or bend metal.  I've calculated stall speed at different weights and then multiplied those times 1.3 to come up with a final approach speed.  Since I don't yank and bank on final I'm essentially 1G level flight on final so those speeds keep me safe (and yes, at an appropriate AOA).  I use a formula based on weight to come up with my approach speed.  Since I rarely (if ever) exceed 30 degrees of bank on base, the extra 15 knots is plenty of stall margin.  And, yes, I have plenty of time upside down and 90 degrees of bank at 9G's to know that wing loading is what counts.

And for what it's worth, all those speeds are with full flaps.  I add 10 knots to all speeds for no flaps.

But do those values change as you increase bank or fly heavier? Or is it always the same in the same phase of flight? I.e. If you fly 80 on base, is it 80 every time? And when you turn base to final, would you be maintaining that 80 through the turn?

[Bob - S50]

Just now, 201er said:

But do those values change as you increase bank or fly heavier? Or is it always the same in the same phase of flight? I.e. If you fly 80 on base, is it 80 every time? And when you turn base to final, would you be maintaining that 80 through the turn?

First:  Bank angle doesn't matter.  I can be at 90 degrees of bank but 0G and the wing won't stall.  Granted, my nose is going to drop quickly, but the wing won't stall.  What matters is wing loading (yes, AOA).  But for normal flying we are essentially talking steady state flying which is normally level flight or close to it.

OK, here is the formula I use for final approach speed:  58 + (1.5 * payload/100), i.e. 58 + (1.5 * 600/100) = 67 knots with 600 pounds of fuel, bags, and fat on board.  So yes, it changes with weight.

And as I said earlier, I add 15 knots for the base turn and I add 10 knots to everything for no flaps.

[201er]

Just now, Bob - S50 said:

First:  Bank angle doesn't matter.  I can be at 90 degrees of bank but 0G and the wing won't stall.  Granted, my nose is going to drop quickly, but the wing won't stall.  What matters is wing loading (yes, AOA).  But for normal flying we are essentially talking steady state flying which is normally level flight or close to it.

OK, here is the formula I use for final approach speed:  58 + (1.5 * payload/100), i.e. 58 + (1.5 * 600/100) = 67 knots with 600 pounds of fuel, bags, and fat on board.  So yes, it changes with weight.

And as I said earlier, I add 15 knots for the base turn and I add 10 knots to everything for no flaps.

So let me ask you again, in doing this, are you trying to maintain constant airspeed or constant angle of attack?

[cnoe]

8 hours ago, cnoe said: In Marauders absence please let me end this now.

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Is she a hand me down from Chris?

Clarence

More like a "truck" me down.

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[201er]

12 hours ago, cnoe said:

In Marauders absence please let me end this now.

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And what would your "stall speed" be?

[cnoe]

... measured on a machmeter.

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[PTK]

10 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

My goal is to not die or bend metal.  I've calculated stall speed at different weights and then multiplied those times 1.3 to come up with a final approach speed. Since I don't yank and bank on final I'm essentially 1G level flight on final so those speeds keep me safe (and yes, at an appropriate AOA).  I use a formula based on weight to come up with my approach speed.  Since I rarely (if ever) exceed 30 degrees of bank on base, the extra 15 knots is plenty of stall margin.  And, yes, I have plenty of time upside down and 90 degrees of bank at 9G's to know that wing loading is what counts.

And for what it's worth, all those speeds are with full flaps.  I add 10 knots to all speeds for no flaps.

Bob, this has to be the most brilliant post in this thread! Pure wisdom! 

Mike (201er) study Bob's post until you understand it. And put your fingers in your ears to be sure this stays in your head! 

I also submit to you that stabilized descents and climbs are essentially at 1G. Also coordinated turns in the pattern are at 1G. I'm descending in these turns anyway. 

So utilize airspeeds in your POH and adjust them for weight. You see Mike, simple. Maybe it's you and not all those instructors you blame!

[DonMuncy]

Don't waste your time Mike.

[201er]

ok

Edited September 17, 2016 by 201er

[201er]

Just now, DonMuncy said:

Don't waste your time Mike.

Ok, you're right.

[PTK]

2 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

Don't waste your time Mike.

You didn't say anything to him when he calls every pilot and four of his instructors stupid, dumb and stubborn! You said nothing to him when he insults and disrespects in the most condescending manner pilots twice his age with 10 times his hours. Pilots who can fly circles around him with their eyes closed. Accomplished safe pilots to him are stupid, old fashioned and oblivious. 

Now you tell him not to waste his time! I guess you agree with his characterizations!

I don't know about you but I certainly don't want my insurance rates going up because of these condescending types who think they know it all while still in diapers. And it will be your insurance too.

So if you want to help tell him to sit up straight and pay attention. He might learn something. 

[kpaul]

[Bravoman]

I guess now I know what that annoying horn was. Had it removed last annual!

[Guitarmaster]

I guess now I know what that annoying horn was. Had it removed last annual!

It really does interfere with being able to hear the radio! I think I will do the same.

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[jetdriven]

7 hours ago, PTK said:

Bob, this has to be the most brilliant post in this thread! Pure wisdom! 

Mike (201er) study Bob's post until you understand it. And put your fingers in your ears to be sure this stays in your head! 

I also submit to you that stabilized descents and climbs are essentially at 1G. Also coordinated turns in the pattern are at 1G. I'm descending in these turns anyway. 

So utilize airspeeds in your POH and adjust them for weight. You see Mike, simple. Maybe it's you and not all those instructors you blame!

Then why are you so vehement against banking 45 degrees in the pattern on final?  I don't see how you hold such opposing ideas in your head at the same time. 

[PTK]

On 9/18/2016 at 3:17 AM, jetdriven said:

Then why are you so vehement against banking 45 degrees in the pattern on final?  I don't see how you hold such opposing ideas in your head at the same time. 

My post was directed to say that aoa gadget not needed.

But since you asked I am indeed opposed to this concept of promoting steep banks in the pattern and trusting it to an aoa gizmo. An indirect aoa gizmo at that.

There's a huge world of difference between a coordinated descending turn in the pattern and a cross controlled uncoordinated turn in the pattern. The latter has a proven track record of increasing the funeral rates for pilots and of their trusting innocent pax. There's a special place, very hot but very special place, for pilots who kill their innocent trusting pax. It also increases the money underwriters have to pay out which of course increases our insurance rates. 

I'm all for proper education and training. Prevention is always the best solution. Mike thinks his instructors are stupid. All four or five of them! He also believes that most pilots are stupid as well! He has made that very clear. 

I believe our present teaching model is correct and on the right track. We need to enhance it. Not abandon and throw away the POH. Requiring some aerobatic education and training would be a good enhancement to the ppl curriculum. 

[Bob - S50]

On 9/17/2016 at 7:21 AM, 201er said:

So let me ask you again, in doing this, are you trying to maintain constant airspeed or constant angle of attack?

I don't have an AOA gauge therefor I must be maintaining a constant airspeed.

[201er]

Just now, Bob - S50 said:

I don't have an AOA gauge therefor I must be maintaining a constant airspeed.

[Ned Gravel]

Throwing gasoline on this discussion....

Just finished the MAPA PPP in Manchester NH a weekend ago.  I must have stalled my Mooney 6 or 7 times.  Power on stalls, power off stalls, departure stalls, climbing turn stalls........  Daylight instruction and night flight instruction both.  They should call the course:  We stall Mooneys!!!

Scared the living daylights out of me.  I can stall and spin a Cherokee 140 all day - no problem.  Docile and predictable.  Easy to get out of.  Spinning a Mooney - not so much.

So when the instructors had us doing all these stalls, I was deathly worried about dropping a wing.

Here is what I found out.   Non event.  

Coordinated flight prevents a wing from dropping and the stall is as docile as it comes.  The Mooney drops its nose and all you have to do add the power and resume actual flight.  Uncoordinated flight and cross control will not be so nice, apparently.  

But it was a GREAT course.  Thanks to Ralph (for setting it up) and for Jack (for scaring the daylights out of me in a very safe manner) and teaching me what is actually possible with my own aircraft.

Good cross section of instructors - very knowledgeable.  

I will do it again in two years.

 

[201er]

20 minutes ago, Ned Gravel said:

Coordinated flight prevents a wing from dropping and the stall is as docile as it comes.  The Mooney drops its nose and all you have to do add the power and resume actual flight.  Uncoordinated flight and cross control will not be so nice, apparently. 

 

Hey Ned, good feedback. Let me ask you something, did you know the stalls were coming? Did you pay additional effort to stay coordinated because the stalls were planned?

[Ned Gravel]

Yes and yes.

[201er]

3 minutes ago, Ned Gravel said:

Yes and yes.

Then do you feel that it was a fair simulation of how a real stall might occur because you fly with similar coordination?

or

37 minutes ago, Ned Gravel said:

So when the instructors had us doing all these stalls, I was deathly worried about dropping a wing.

Are you deathly worried about real world stalls still?

[Hank]

7 minutes ago, 201er said:

Then do you feel that it was a fair simulation of how a real stall might occur because you fly with similar coordination?

or

Are you deathly worried about real world stalls still?

The point is not to show how stalls sneak up on you, but to teach what an approaching stall feels like so they can be avoided, and what to do in the event one occurs. The power on stalls show how they can occur in unlikely scenarios like departure or go around, and how even these can be overcome. It also removes a lot of pilot fear.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Hank

[N9201A]

Demonstrating mastery in slow flight regime/stall series builds pilot confidence in skills and aircraft.

[Hector]

Just had my biannual with a new CFI. Very thorough and during the ground portion asked me a series of questions where essentially I admitted I don't do a lot of slow flight and stall in my Mooney. He said "good, then that is all we will do today". The next hour was spent in slow flight and all manner of stalls. It was a non-event. Granted, I made sure I was in coordinated flight, but all stalls were perfectly predicable and well behaved. Had not done so many stalls in probably 4 years, but was glad to be reminded again that my bird is very well behaved if flown properly.