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Racing Mooneys for the lulz.

Capt_CrashN_Burn

By Capt_CrashN_Burn
in General Mooney Talk

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Which Mooney model would you pick to race.  

23 members have voted

  1. 1. Which Mooney model would you pick to race.

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Capt_CrashN_Burn Community Regular

Capt_CrashN_Burn

Posted
Posted

If you were to build a Mooney racer for the Sport Air Racing League, Which do you think would be the better body, medium or short.


Specifically, let's keep this to the 4 cyl Mooneys, let's say, one with the IO-390. Now if cost was no object and you could strip either down into a full blown race plane (withing the rules) which one do you think would end up faster??


 


http://www.sportairrace.org/

DaV8or Grand Master

DaV8or

Posted
Posted

I would pick the E. It is lighter and has less wetted area. Since money is no object, a Lo Presti cowl and all the 231 mods can be made to it. Should be faster than a similarly equiped J but at greater expense. On the other hand, aerodynamics are a funny thing and maybe the longer fuselage helps the laminar flow along the fuselage. Still, gut says E.

Capt_CrashN_Burn Community Regular

Capt_CrashN_Burn

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Quote: jerry-N5911Q

If you make it fast enough, you will want to area rule the fuselage.  I don't think there are any standard mod kits for that, yet.

What is "area ruling a fuselage"??

 

More seriously, look at the CAFE  Foundation; they spent a lot of careful research work improving the efficiency of a Mooney aircraft and most of that was drag reduction. 

see  www.cafefoundation.org/v2/aboutcafe_cafeboard.php  

 

scottfromiowa Grand Master

scottfromiowa

Posted
Posted

Burn,


I'm NOT EXPERT, but I do shoot and re-load rifle, pistol, shotgun...Weight in a bullet ='s faster velocity?  I.E. more is faster?...(your previous post) I think you need to back this up as I do re-load and have different caliber's as I sometimes want fast...small bullet like .223 and I some times want big (knock-down)/foot pounds of energy.  Mass/bullet weight ='s energy.  Velocity comes from small rounds.  The grain weight in a bullet can certainly be sped up by pushing it with a bunch of powder...bigger case, but it is easier to accelerate to high velocity with a smaller starting weight (bullet weight).  Coy Jacobs cleaned up an M20E with lots of speed mods and a custom cowl and it kicked the crap out of a stock 201.  The plane had the same engine, more mods, but was LIGHTER than the J.  It won.  A longer body definitely smooths out turbulence, but it is NOT faster because of the long body, but because of the mods that more than compensate for the weight gain with the length.  Mod out an E with a Lo-Presti cowl.  Get a strong engine and you will whip a J in climb, cruise...whatever. 

Ashe Contributor

Ashe

Posted
Posted

Scott,

The point you raise about the modded E has me wondering about an older post of mine where I was asking about Vne/Vno of the 1960's short bodies  (though I suppose in a racing environment, no one really cares about placarded speeds).  While at this point I have no doubt that the E presents the highest speed potential, wouldn't the E have well exceeded Vne pulling away from a J that is maybe only just entering it's yellow arc?

Quote: scottfromiowa

....  Coy Jacobs cleaned up an M20E with lots of speed mods and a custom cowl and it kicked the crap out of a stock 201.  The plane had the same engine, more mods, but was LIGHTER than the J.  It won.  A longer body definitely smooths out turbulence, but it is NOT faster because of the long body, but because of the mods that more than compensate for the weight gain with the length.  Mod out an E with a Lo-Presti cowl.  Get a strong engine and you will whip a J in climb, cruise...whatever....

carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

Posted
Posted


Texoma 100, 2008 4/19/2008 FAC1RG-T Mooney Accclaim   Patrick Rydzewski  187.27 215.55
               
               
               
               
               
Texoma 100, 2009 5/30/2009 FAC3RG Mooney M20J   Ali Mutlu 159.32 183.34
               
               
              181.33
Grace Flight 2008 10/4/2008 FAC4RG Mooney M20C   Henry Punzi 157.57              

From the data supplied by Jeff...  Looks like the longbody is a bit faster than the medium or the short.  Interesting that the M20C is only 2kts off from the M20J. 

Forgive me for asking.  Does this proposed race include acceleration?  Yes, the lighter bullet accelarates quicker to a higher speed.  I am thinking from a "flying start" on a straight course weight will be less important than power and wetted cross sectional area (friction related drag)


(Turbo + fuel injection + more displacement) / (CSA + laminar wing) = Fast


more power, less friction, .....  lower weight would be good too.


 


Best regards,


-a-

Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

Gee, the Acclaim's got 90 extra horses plus a turbo--he'd better be faster! I'm surprised, though, that it's only 30 knots faster than the C. Mine doesn't usually run quite as fast as Henry's, though.


What are the two columns of numbers? Presumably speeds, but what/how?


AND, at least the FAI puts the fuel-injected planes in a different category from us'n's with carbs. There may be hope yet.

carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

Posted
Posted

first number is kts the other is mph.


If value = speed / price, then M20C is a sure winner on the value scale.


On the other hand some M20Rs can achieve the speeds demonstrated by this particular Acclaim.   There must have been an altitude restriction or the M20TN driver was sand bagging????


-a-

Capt_CrashN_Burn Community Regular

Capt_CrashN_Burn

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Quote: carusoam

first number is kts the other is mph.

If value = speed / price, then M20C is a sure winner on the value scale.

On the other hand some M20Rs can achieve the speeds demonstrated by this particular Acclaim.   There must have been an altitude restriction or the M20TN driver was sand bagging????

-a-

scottfromiowa Grand Master

scottfromiowa

Posted
Posted

The long bodies were NOT included in the survey...or the K's/231's.  I stick by my assessment that if an E is modded and has a Lo-Proesti cowl it will be faster than a J in level flight.  My E has a VNE of 200knots.  No E or J is going to achieve this in level flight...yes if there is a tailwind it can be achieved as ground speed or in a dive with NO PROBLEM...


How could an F model be lighter than an E?  You have more sheet metal.  Not getting that post. 


J's DO RULE...over un-modded E's.  I have never raced a J.  I'd like to do that some time to see the TRUE difference between a J and my E with mod's I have at same altitude...same power setting and leaning...and fuel on board.

Ron McBride Mentor

Ron McBride

Posted
Posted

They have claimed that an F only has about 10 to 15#'s of sheet metal over an E.  I just double checked my empty weight. It is: 1682.35 #'s.  And yes my gross is 2740#'s.  So at gross I am heavier, but I don't have to be.  At my local airport, we had a short field takeoff and landing contest. My weight was approx. 2080#.   My wife heard several comments, "That" was a Mooney. I was off the ground and stopped in about 500 feet.


Scott, What is your empty weight?


Scott, reread your POH. According to the Data that I have, a 66E has a VNE of 189 MPH.  the newest E's only have a VNE of 200 MPH.


Ron

scottfromiowa Grand Master

scottfromiowa

Posted
Posted

You're right Ron.  My error on the VNE.  Duh, as I have dual computer screens and my work screen has a photo of my panel in the background.  I personally never exceed 180 knots (indicated), but should have known this number from memory...I will now.  My weight and balance is in my aircraft (in for annual) I will check on my empty weight and get back with you.  Wouln't the tubing alone for roll cage weigh more than 9 pounds?  I'm surprised that there would be such a small weight difference between the E&F.  Good stuff.

Capt_CrashN_Burn Community Regular

Capt_CrashN_Burn

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Quote: scottfromiowa

Burn,

I'm NOT EXPERT, but I do shoot and re-load rifle, pistol, shotgun...Weight in a bullet ='s faster velocity?  I.E. more is faster?...(your previous post) I think you need to back this up as I do re-load and have different caliber's as I sometimes want fast...small bullet like .223 and I some times want big (knock-down)/foot pounds of energy.  Mass/bullet weight ='s energy.  Velocity comes from small rounds.  The grain weight in a bullet can certainly be sped up by pushing it with a bunch of powder...bigger case, but it is easier to accelerate to high velocity with a smaller starting weight (bullet weight).  Coy Jacobs cleaned up an M20E with lots of speed mods and a custom cowl and it kicked the crap out of a stock 201.  The plane had the same engine, more mods, but was LIGHTER than the J.  It won.  A longer body definitely smooths out turbulence, but it is NOT faster because of the long body, but because of the mods that more than compensate for the weight gain with the length.  Mod out an E with a Lo-Presti cowl.  Get a strong engine and you will whip a J in climb, cruise...whatever. 

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