Cirrus SR20 down in Houston

[kevinw]

Just now, 201er said:

From low altitude? It stops spinning when it hits the ground.

Sad but true. Opposite rudder, neutral aileron and nose down is what I've always been told. The problem is this sort of event almost always happens at low altitude where it is impossible to recover.

[flyboy0681]

Just now, kevinw said:

Sad but true. Opposite rudder, neutral aileron and nose down is what I've always been told. The problem is this sort of event almost always happens at low altitude where it is impossible to recover.

 

That's the procedure for the garden variety stall. In a flat spin the CG is aft and the elevator is rendered useless.

[chrisk]

11 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Just how does on recover from a flat spin? What (if any) is the procedure?

I've heard (second hand) of cases where the pilot has "hugged the panel / moved forward" to shift CG forward.  In the stories I've heard, that small change made the difference.

In a Cirrus, pop the chute and pray it opens.

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Just how does on recover from a flat spin? What (if any) is the procedure?

My Owners Manual describes several methods to break a spin. I've also read somewhere from a Mooney test pilot about ways he used to break a spin. For a flat spin, you need to unflatten it, often by working the throttle full to idle to full a few times coupled with full elevator deflection both directions [if I remember right]. You can also drop the gear. If that doesn't work, eject. 

My OM also says that recovery from a one-turn spin may require up to 2000' of altitude, so ain't nothing going to happen with a stall/spin at pattern altitude except an ugly splat, with or without a fire [seems to be luck of the draw on that one]. Thus the attention to make sure that I stay at or above 1.3 Vs. Holding 90 mph on downwind and base, 85 on final and 70-75 over the fence depending on weight, I have a buffer; by not banking beyond 30º, I don't need more buffer nor an AOA to remain safe. This works for me from large Class C [up to 11,000' long] down to grass strips of just 2000'. Any shorter and I'll go elsewhere.

[chrisk]

On 6/11/2016 at 11:47 AM, Antares said:

 

I was looking for evidence of the chute dragging, but I couldn't see it.

[DVA]

29 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Just how does on recover from a flat spin? What (if any) is the procedure?

One of the concerns about the Cirrus in certification testing was its ability to recover properly and consistently from spins. You can hear that in the response of a Cirrus engineer in the article I linked when he talks about the spin testing and that prevention of a spin was more important than trying to get the aircraft to spin and recover in all test conditions. While I have never seen any proof to this, I have seen enough anecdotal evidence to believe that one of the pushes for the parachute system was due to the poor spin recovery. Some of these spin issues are cited in this article.

A flat spin (if that really occurred in this accident case) is a very unusual event with a GA plane, as the CG is normally forward enough in all configurations that the nose will point down pretty quickly if you have a little altitude. Flat spin recovery is simple in principle - find a way to point the nose toward down and now you get your chance to recover; failing that, the airplane is a helicopter without an engine and a rotor and it will react as such.

http://www.kineticlearning.com/pilots_world/safety/06_05/article_06_03.html

[ArtVandelay]

On my J when at cruise the elevators are down slightly, so pushing the tail up, with only my self in the plane, makes me wonder when they stretch the M20 without adding a heavier engine, if the CG is a bit further aft than other models and accounts for some of the reputation of Mooneys stall characteristics.

[ArtVandelay]

On 6/11/2016 at 11:47 AM, Antares said:  

I was looking for evidence of the chute dragging, but I couldn't see it.

If you look carefully I believe you'll see the chute rocket firing on impact.

[chrisk]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

If you look carefully I believe you'll see the chute rocket firing on impact.

Maybe.  It's hard for me to tell.  Parts go everywhere. 

[Samurai Husky]

BTW; there was a 2nd crash the day after this one... This time it was a student and instructor doing touch and go's.... Same apparent stall into a spin at neat TPA....Student died, the instructor was taken to the hospital it major injuries but survived.

http://www.wsiltv.com/story/32197786/1-dead-1-hurt-in-marion-plane-crash

Same plane i fly.... 

On a happier note; there was a 3rd crash in Germany on the same day; But this time the guy activated the parashoot. http://hessenschau.de/panorama/handy-video-zeigt-kleinflugzeug-bei-fallschirm-notlandung,flugzeug-notlandung-hungen-100.html

uhhhh. you have to know german to read the site, but the video of the guy coming down is neat. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[kpaul]

I don’t know if having an all metal aircraft would have changed the end results of these accidents, but it is amazing how the plane’s crew compartment disintegrated around the occupants.  There does not seem to be much if any protection.

[kris_adams]

1 hour ago, kpaul said:

I don’t know if having an all metal aircraft would have changed the end results of these accidents, but it is amazing how the plane’s crew compartment disintegrated around the occupants.  There does not seem to be much if any protection.

I agree.  It is really hard to watch the plane just crack into pieces. 

[carusoam]

On June 13, 2016 at 2:13 PM, teejayevans said:

On my J when at cruise the elevators are down slightly, so pushing the tail up, with only my self in the plane, makes me wonder when they stretch the M20 without adding a heavier engine, if the CG is a bit further aft than other models and accounts for some of the reputation of Mooneys stall characteristics.

Message for TJ,

The LBs are designed to have CG flexibility.  Many of the options are balanced using ballast known as Charlie weights.  There are a few things that are good to have in place of Charlie weights like remote radio boxes, TKS tanks and an O2 tank.

Knowing your WnB is as easy as running an app.  Kinda important like checking your DA and related performance before departing.  So easy to do in the modern connected world.

Best regards,

-a-

[AndyFromCB]

14 hours ago, kpaul said:

I don’t know if having an all metal aircraft would have changed the end results of these accidents, but it is amazing how the plane’s crew compartment disintegrated around the occupants.  There does not seem to be much if any protection.

 

Not really, it would have made no difference whatsoever. Cirrus actually has more cabin protection at survivable speeds than almost any other GA aircraft. Watch the crash where it gets caught in rotor wash on landing at Fort Collins. The plane cartwheels, everything more or less breaks, the cabin stays intact. At this speed, pretty much everything would disintegrate. This Cirrus slams the ground at probably 70knots, complete stop then direction reversal. Don't try that in an aircraft with a 3 point harness like Mooney ;-)

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[kpaul]

That one did seem to survive that pretty well and I am sure the 4 point harness paid dividends.  What that does show is a lack of knowledge, understanding or SA on wake turblance.  That Cirrus started to roll 27 seconds after the -60 took off.  Even in a larger aircraft that is too close.  In the PC-12 I give a minimum of 2 minutes spacing to Helos and three minutes to anything 'heavy' or the CV-22.  In my Mooney, I give three minutes to helos operating on the same runway or on an up wind taxiway.

[AndyFromCB]

What's interesting about this crash is lack of fire. There clearly was no fuel in these tanks. So basically a very typical GA accident, with many links in the chain, starting with poor flight planing and going literally downhill from there. Unbelievably sad.

[ArtVandelay]

What's interesting about this crash is lack of fire. There clearly was no fuel in these tanks. So basically a very typical GA accident, with many links in the chain, starting with poor flight planing and going literally downhill from there. Unbelievably sad.

No, there clearly was fuel in the left tank at least, you can see it pour out in the video, it runs down the windshield of the car.

I don't agree with the poor flight planning either; she got to the airport and didn't seem to have a problem on the first approach to 4 before she was forced to go around by the tower because of a closing 737.

Once she missed and accepted the other runway and got out of sync she fell behind the plane and never could recover. If she just asked to be resequenced for a long straight in approach I think she would have been fine.