eshopper Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 Hi all, we are having trouble with an avionic upgrade in our M20J replacing an old Trimble2000 GPS with a newer GNS530W. A KI525 HSI is installed with an KFC150 Autopilot. After flying back from the shop, we found that "automatic roll steering" was gone !?? Meaning the autopilot (KFC150) flying a multileg programmed flight plan (or any procedure like SID etc.) without any manual intervention for lateral steering. This used to work and does no longer! The A/P tracks the magenta GPS line in AP "NAV" mode, but does so only after a manual intercept course has been setup. After a waypoint turn >25 degree tracking is lost. The shop has "removed" a box labeled "GPS Box", which was connected to the NAV/GPS Switch. (which also has been removed). This apperently was an interface REQUIRED for automatic roll steering, converting the Arinc429 digital GPS signal to an analog input that the KFC150 wants. That we know by now, the box does something similar to the GDC31 adapter. http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/tb20-experience/gdc31.pdf The avionics shop obviously lacks experience and knowledge to connect things correctly but also we and they lack WIRING documentation for this "GPS Box". (no other labeling or manufacturer visible). What I would like to know from fellow Mooniacs WITH KFC/KAP150 and GARMIN430/530 and working automatic roll steering is: What additional adapter equipment (other than GDC31) do YOU use / have installed to make it work? (make and model) Would be able to provide a link or a PM for wiring documentation for YOUR working adaptor? We hope to find somebody using the same adapter box we have (and trace the documentation this way). Thanks for your help Joe Quote
carqwik Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 I have the -525 and the KFC-150...along with a KLN-94. My plane does not have GPSS which is what I think you are referring to as "automatic roll steering" if I understand your post. With my set up, all course changes have to manually set in the HSI with the course line pointer when crossing waypoints. Not sure if this is a limitation set by the -525 or the -150 or what... Not sure this is helpful... Quote
eshopper Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Posted January 7, 2016 Hi, thanks for the reply, I think it is an example of a much underutilized installation (from reading the forums many of those exist) where "automatic following a multileg track" which I consider a very essential feature is INOP although it could be enabled. http://dacint.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/1049-2510-01-V1.pdf the GDC31 has a large number of compatible GPSs, however the KLN-94 seems to be an exception being not compatible. But GARMIN430/530 will work! Therefore I look forward to others telling us what adapters they have. To be more specific: My installation is a KAP150 with KC191 (not "KFC150" meaning no FD bars) but capable of controlling roll & pitch. Quote
flyboy0681 Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 Certainly sounds like the shop ripped out the GPSS functionality, probably by not knowing exactly what it was. We have the ICARUS SAM GPS Steering system installed but the company discontinued manufacturing it about a year ago, although they still provide service and support. Quote
eshopper Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Posted January 7, 2016 Thanks! Suprised to see that this ICARUS box is even a panel mount.http://www.icarusinstruments.com/samgps/Home.html We still hope to find somebody with the same box that has been ripped out in our case - I will load a photo asap. It could also be that this one was specific to the Trimble->KAP150 connection and may not apply anymore for a Garmin530 -> KAP150 installation. Quote
carusoam Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 The Icarus box comes in a few different versions as well depending on what it is interfacing. you may be able to search GPSS in the search box at the top of your screen. these 'boxes' were popular at first. But have become more of a part of other systems such as an Aspen. If I were to add an Icarus box to my 90’s BK system it would be able to automatically adjust the heading at each way point. Keep in mind that the KAP 150 needs to be used in heading mode to make this happen. It sounds like somebody removed your GPSS box without replacing it with an Aspen or other device with GPSS capability. If you got a new box that provides GPSS capability, there is some settings amiss or AP button not being pushed. MY BK system has a KLN90B connected to the KAP150 and a panel switch connected to a blue light . The panel switch is for other Nav radios to be interfaced into the panel display and connect to the AP. A similar, newer, KLN94 may not have the output on the back of the box to interface with a GPSS. Something I recall from doing research on my system a couple of years ago. The 90B is a pretty powerful navigator for being 15 years old. I am only a PP, not an avionics tech. Best regards, -a- Quote
Awful_Charlie Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) I used to have the DAC GDC31 before I put in the Aspen, as the Aspen had the GPSS functionality. For me it was connected to my GNS480, but it worked fine. I'm surprised the shop pulled it out, and if that happened to me I'd be disappointed too. When I put in the Aspen, I also dropped in an old GNS430 (non-W) as I had one lying around, and I needed an 8.33 radio, and the Aspen takes both the 480 or 430 for GPSS roll steer. I can provide a block diagram of the interconnects, but don't have one for each individual pin out. I might have the old wiring diagram for the GDC and GNS480 from the shop that originally installed them, but if I do still have it, it will be over in the hangar with the aircraft records. I have the KFC150, so a KC192 and command bars, but otherwise the same autopilot as your install Ben Edited January 7, 2016 by Awful_Charlie Quote
Bennett Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 Hi all, we are having trouble with an avionic upgrade in our M20J replacing an old Trimble2000 GPS with a newer GNS530W. A KI525 HSI is installed with an KFC150 Autopilot. After flying back from the shop, we found that "automatic roll steering" was gone !?? Meaning the autopilot (KFC150) flying a multileg programmed flight plan (or any procedure like SID etc.) without any manual intervention for lateral steering. This used to work and does no longer! The A/P tracks the magenta GPS line in AP "NAV" mode, but does so only after a manual intercept course has been setup. After a waypoint turn >25 degree tracking is lost. The shop has "removed" a box labeled "GPS Box", which was connected to the NAV/GPS Switch. (which also has been removed). This apperently was an interface REQUIRED for automatic roll steering, converting the Arinc429 digital GPS signal to an analog input that the KFC150 wants. That we know by now, the box does something similar to the GDC31 adapter. http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/tb20-experience/gdc31.pdf The avionics shop obviously lacks experience and knowledge to connect things correctly but also we and they lack WIRING documentation for this "GPS Box". (no other labeling or manufacturer visible). What I would like to know from fellow Mooniacs WITH KFC/KAP150 and GARMIN430/530 and working automatic roll steering is: What additional adapter equipment (other than GDC31) do YOU use / have installed to make it work? (make and model) Would be able to provide a link or a PM for wiring documentation for YOUR working adaptor? We hope to find somebody using the same adapter box we have (and trace the documentation this way). Thanks for your help Joe I had my avionics shop add an Icarus SAM for GPSS steering for my GTN 750 / KAP 150 setup. The SAM unit has many features I don't use, but one press of the center button calls out: GPSS STEERING ENGAGED, and when the KAP 150 is in Heading mode, if will follow the flight plans set in the GTN 750. All turns are announced and accomplished smoothly just prior to the waypoint in the flight plan. Great unit. Quote
flyboy0681 Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 The SAM unit has many features I don't use, but one press of the center button calls out: You really should become acquainted with all of the features that it has to offer. The ones that I use most are the altitude alert, GUMPS check and Decision Height announcement. Quote
laytonl Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 I have a KAP150 with a GNSS530W but do not have roll steering. As others have said, this setup works great and flys coupled approaches very well but you do have to exert the effort to reach up and twist the course pointer on the HSI. I'm waiting to upgrade the HSI to an Aspen to get roll steering. Lee Quote
Bennett Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 The SAM unit has many features I don't use, but one press of the center button calls out: You really should become acquainted with all of the features that it has to offer. The ones that I use most are the altitude alert, GUMPS check and Decisioni Height announcement. . I am well aware of the capabilities of the SAM system and initially I used many of its features. But I find it a bit hard to read, and input data where the control head is located, and all I really want is the GPSS steering. The altitude and decision height call outs are good features, and I might go back to using them. Thanks for the reminder Quote
flyboy0681 Posted January 7, 2016 Report Posted January 7, 2016 . I am well aware of the capabilities of the SAM system and initially I used many of its features. But I find it a bit hard to read, and input data where the control head is located, and all I really want is the GPSS steering. The altitude and decision height call outs are good features, and I might go back to using them. Thanks for the reminder If I have any complaint about the unit, it is the display. Even at its brightest setting I find it difficult to read the small lettering. Quote
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