Electric Flaps Troubleshooting

[Marauder]

has the problem recurred since cleaning the contacts perhaps that's all that was needed

After 24 years of owning the same Mooney, one observation I have made about a problem with my plane; they never go away, they just come back later, somewhere else...

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[Marauder]

I'm really hoping someone has an electronics version of this schematic. We think we have figured out most of the circuit but the flap switch is an integral part of the circuit that needs some understanding applied about it.

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[Jim F]

Hi Marauder,

Can you get a photo of the flap switch wires?  Maybe draw out the wire connections. With the switch drawn and the relay schematic you have the entire circuit and your EE will get it.  If not i am sure we can figure it out  

Jim

[Yetti]

I am back in the same town with the plane.  Hopefully tomorrow I can get over to the hanger and get you a real life diagram of the flap switch and how it works

[Marauder]

Hi Marauder,

Can you get a photo of the flap switch wires?  Maybe draw out the wire connections. With the switch drawn and the relay schematic you have the entire circuit and your EE will get it.  If not i am sure we can figure it out  

Jim

I am back in the same town with the plane.  Hopefully tomorrow I can get over to the hanger and get you a real life diagram of the flap switch and how it works

Thanks to both of you. Jim -- I will need to disassemble the quadrant to get a look at the wires. If Yetti, isn't able to get over to the plane, I will see if I can get a look under the quadrant. I was surprised to find that only the 1975 models used this flap switch.

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[Yetti]

The lever on the quadrant is connected to a switch via rods and cotter pins that you can see from the when rolling around on the copilot floor.  That is when I saw it last

[Yetti]

This should get the EE heads spinning.

Let's label the positions 123.   It is a double pole three position on switch.   Basically I think it reverses the voltages to the relays hence the crossing part of the diagram.

 

Up Position 1.12V both sides

TO Only sees momentary voltage never continuous

Down Position 3 12V both sides continuous

View from copilots side

View from pilots

 

 

 

[Marauder]

This should get the EE heads spinning.

Let's label the positions 123.   It is a double pole three position on switch.   Basically I think it reverses the voltages to the relays hence the crossing part of the diagram.

 

Up Position 1.12V both sides

TO Only sees momentary voltage never continuous

Down Position 3 12V both sides continuous

View from copilots side

View from pilots

 

 

 

Yetti -- can't thank you enough! Your flap switch looks different. Is your plane a 1975? I thought the option on that model year was the slider I showed above.

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[Marauder]

Upon second view, the shaft coming out of the switch is what is connected to the slider?

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[Yetti]

Same model year.  Same quadrant.   Yes the switch is connected to the lever in the throttle quadrant with a rod and pins.    I looked up the switch number on digikey and got no hits.  Maybe mcmaster car would be the next place to look.   Maybe the switch connects left to right side letting current flow.   Which would make it not a double pole.

[Jim F]

Ok I am back and can spend a little time on this. 

Yetti, question. Your voltages listed. You measured where to where?  Flap switch was where?  When you took the pictures did you move the flap switch?  In the copilot pic the switch is aft and the pilots pic the switch is forward.

Marauder, on the schematic it shows two 5 pin connectors. Can you find them on your plane?

 

[Marauder]

Ok I am back and can spend a little time on this. 

Yetti, question. Your voltages listed. You measured where to where?  Flap switch was where?  When you took the pictures did you move the flap switch?  In the copilot pic the switch is aft and the pilots pic the switch is forward.

Marauder, on the schematic it shows two 5 pin connectors. Can you find them on your plane?

 

Jim - I think Yetti's picture is the same view with one just out of focus. The ink mark on the switch looks the same in both pictures.

As for the five pin connectors on the schematic, I'm not sure which connectors are you looking at. Can you tell me where on the schematic you're looking?

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[Yetti]

First picture is from copilots side.  Second is from pilots side.

Let's label the TERMINALS on the switch 123.   with 1 being the most forward.

 

flap Up Position  terminal 1 - 12V both sides contiious

flap TO Only sees momentary voltage on terminal 2 never continuous

flap Down Position terminal 3 12V both sides continuous

 

[Jim F]

Yetti, ok when I read your post I saw 1.12v and I thought you were getting a low voltage. Just a typo or poor reading on my side. The center polls not having 12 v is interesting. 

Marauder and Yetti, would you guys be open to a GOTO meeting?  I would like to put the schmatics in PowerPoint and then I can highlight the traces.  If you are good with a GOTO then PM me and I will give you my Email address.

I still need a clear schematic of the relay.  

On the connector, the 5 wires where you see 12345 and a horizontal line in my current world would mean a snap together connector.  You don't see many snap connectors in or aircraft so this could be me miss reading the schmatic. 

[Marauder]

Yetti, ok when I read your post I saw 1.12v and I thought you were getting a low voltage. Just a typo or poor reading on my side. The center polls not having 12 v is interesting. 

Marauder and Yetti, would you guys be open to a GOTO meeting?  I would like to put the schmatics in PowerPoint and then I can highlight the traces.  If you are good with a GOTO then PM me and I will give you my Email address.

I still need a clear schematic of the relay.  

On the connector, the 5 wires where you see 12345 and a horizontal line in my current world would mean a snap together connector.  You don't see many snap connectors in or aircraft so this could be me miss reading the schmatic. 

Jim -- not familiar with the GOTO meeting. Is it like a Web-Ex?

As for the schematic, I posted to see if anyone has a better copy. My paper one looks like it was put on 11X17 from a master drawing and they didn't copy it correctly.

Let me know how the GOTO thing works. I will PM.

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[Yetti]

I wrote the first description poorly with wrong terminology.  My bad.

Starting an annual next week so I will have everything open.

Things you don't think of when lying upside down across the seats.   I should probably do a continuity check across the left and right sides of the switch.  If I was troubleshooting the switch would already have been pulled out and tested.

I can also put together a webex if need be.

[Jim F]

Good morning Yetti. GOTO works the same and I have a GOTO account.  

You can get the meeting number from Marauder and my cell. You need to have a connection to the web.

yes please do a continuity check of the switch power off and on the first two pins. Clip on and cycle the flap switch back and forth. List the resistance in ohms. Also mark the switch with a sharpe 123 with 1 toward the front. Then repeat the test power on in volts.  

Jim

[Marauder]

I wrote the first description poorly with wrong terminology.  My bad.

Starting an annual next week so I will have everything open.

Things you don't think of when lying upside down across the seats.   I should probably do a continuity check across the left and right sides of the switch.  If I was troubleshooting the switch would already have been pulled out and tested.

I can also put together a webex if need be.

It would be great if you could snap some pictures of your flap switches and relays in the belly area. The 1975 model year is the only model year with this configuration and it might help others who struggle with this in the future.

I would be particularly interested in close up pictures of the relays and whatever writing is on them. I also wasn't able to get a close-up view of the front switch near the spar. As you probably can tell from my pictures, I only removed a part of the panel and reached up and did the cleaning that way. Err, I mean my mechanic did.

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[Marauder]

Good morning Yetti. GOTO works the same and I have a GOTO account.  

You can get the meeting number from Marauder and my cell. You need to have a connection to the web.

yes please do a continuity check of the switch power off and on the first two pins. Clip on and cycle the flap switch back and forth. List the resistance in ohms. Also mark the switch with a sharpe 123 with 1 toward the front. Then repeat the test power on in volts.  

Jim

Jim -- I got your email. I will send the information to Yetti and see if we can find a good time to walk through this. I do appreciate all the help.

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[Yetti]

Yep.   Wanting to help out for the when my time comes.   mechanical things like to go south.   This is not covered in my manuals.....  guess that means our "mechanics" can not work on them :-)

 

[Mooneymite]

Wow....this thread is making me appreciate my first generation electrical flap drive.  No limit switches at all.

It is great that you are exploring this problem and posting your discoveries.

Mooneyspace at its best.

 

[Andy95W]

Wow....this thread is making me appreciate my first generation electrical flap drive.  No limit switches at all.

It was making me appreciate my hydraulic flaps!

[Marauder]

It was making me appreciate my hydraulic flaps!

Well, when they do work, dem Dee electric flaps are soooo smooth.

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[bonal]

 

Well, when they do work, dem Dee electric flaps are soooo smooth.

 

 

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I'm still wondering if the problem has recurred since you cleaned it all up keep thinking you might be fixing something that ain't broke

[Marauder]

I'm still wondering if the problem has recurred since you cleaned it all up keep thinking you might be fixing something that ain't broke

Sort of. Last weekend, I was able to fly and they worked fine until the second landing and they wouldn't come up until I cycled the breaker a couple of times.

Tonight they worked normally. I have learned in my 24 years owning this plane, intermittent problems are a path to constant problems. Just a question of how long... Considering I'm dealing with 40 year old components, a little preventative maintenance won't let me stranded.

We're still sorting out what everything does. A pretty complex flap system as far as Mooneys go.

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