mike28w Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 I'm unimpressed with the asking price..... With the market today , I really think you can do better. To me, it's not a terrible plane...Assuming the mechanical pre-purchase checks out OK , it could a good time builder. You must be comfortable with the cosmetics, though, as you will never get your money back from a paint job. I would really insist on a close inspection and explanation of that fuel drain....that worries me . Fuel tank repairs on a Mooney can be 10-12 K !!! All in all....if it were me, I'd keep looking. I believe that you can get a better plane for the money. That plane will probably sell for ~ 28-30K depending on hours on the engine. JMO....mike Quote
eman1200 Posted June 21, 2015 Author Report Posted June 21, 2015 I'm unimpressed with the asking price..... With the market today , I really think you can do better. To me, it's not a terrible plane...Assuming the mechanical pre-purchase checks out OK , it could a good time builder. You must be comfortable with the cosmetics, though, as you will never get your money back from a paint job. I would really insist on a close inspection and explanation of that fuel drain....that worries me . Fuel tank repairs on a Mooney can be 10-12 K !!! All in all....if it were me, I'd keep looking. I believe that you can get a better plane for the money. That plane will probably sell for ~ 28-30K depending on hours on the engine. JMO....mike appreciate the feedback from everyone. Quote
Urs_Wildermuth Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 I also think it is a bit harsh to simply recommend to walk away, I've seen much worse. eman, you say it has no AP, yet I see on some pics that it does have the Accutrack by Brittain. That is actually not a very bad thing if it works, if not, Brittain Industries are very helpful to fix them. You might want to consider adding the Accuflite module, which would also give you heading hold, and possibly a S-tec 30-Alt to get altitude hold capability. Price is high, I agree. Otherwise, a manageable task if the pre buy is ok. Quote
eman1200 Posted June 21, 2015 Author Report Posted June 21, 2015 I also think it is a bit harsh to simply recommend to walk away, I've seen much worse. eman, you say it has no AP, yet I see on some pics that it does have the Accutrack by Brittain. That is actually not a very bad thing if it works, if not, Brittain Industries are very helpful to fix them. You might want to consider adding the Accuflite module, which would also give you heading hold, and possibly a S-tec 30-Alt to get altitude hold capability. Price is high, I agree. Otherwise, a manageable task if the pre buy is ok. I was told the accutrack does not work. And yeah, I'm not walking just yet, but even with as little as I know, I'm well aware the price is too high. Quote
carl Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 I think its a beauty!!! I think all planes are a labor of love. There was a DC-3 that crashed in antartica and it was rebuilt in place and it flew out. Just plan on fixing it up. It is a lot nicer than mine. If it wasnt raining today I'd be flying. Carl Quote
Hank Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 I was told the accutrack does not work. And yeah, I'm not walking just yet, but even with as little as I know, I'm well aware the price is too high. Accutraks are very inexpensive to fix. I had a servo redone for $125 plus shipping. The big computer-thingy in the back may run as high as $750-800, plus labor to remove and install. Call it $2000 or a little more to redo the whole system. Does the PC system work? It's required for the AccuTrak. Both are vacuum powered, old tubing may need to be replaced. Still not a bad plane, just overpriced for its condition. A good cleaning and repaint of the gear and wheel wells would be nice. Quote
carusoam Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 Eman, Are you a hands on kind of owner? You like to do the things that save money so you can afford more plane? -Or- Are you not interested in / not able to do maintenance work? Just want to fly? What drives your plane purchasing decisions? Visit some MSCs and AAA and build your experience on line before going to physically see things... So much to learn before buying. An educated consumer is the best customer... - Sy Simms(?) Where are you located? http://www.lasar.com/sales/plane-sales.asp http://allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm Buying machinery is a really cool job. Unfortunately, it's a job... Best regards, -a- Quote
mike28w Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 Just fyi....someone is selling a '65 M20E in the classifieds. ~850 hours SMOH ~$ 30,000.....It's a plane that I would want to look at more closely. Disclaimer: Don't know the owner or the plane. No financial interest at all. ( I just like to help spend other people's money, I guess ) PS: Always , always get a very thorough pre-purchase inspection . All P-P inspections are not the same...some mechanics just check to make sure the wings won't fall off.....on the way home) Good luck ! Quote
eman1200 Posted June 21, 2015 Author Report Posted June 21, 2015 Eman, Are you a hands on kind of owner? You like to do the things that save money so you can afford more plane? -Or- Are you not interested in / not able to do maintenance work? Just want to fly? What drives your plane purchasing decisions? Visit some MSCs and AAA and build your experience on line before going to physically see things... .... http://www.lasar.com/sales/plane-sales.asp http://allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm Buying machinery is a really cool job. Unfortunately, it's a job... Best regards, -a- interesting questions, -a-, where to start.... there's a whole lot to it, but here's one of the main driving factors of ownership.... I'm single, no kids, and the ability to work "from home", which means anywhere I have internet access. it's time for me to put my PPL to use and move around a bit and see the country, even if it's in bits and pieces, a couple of weeks at a time. there is NO reason why I shouldn't spend a few days here, a few days there, come home for a bit, then repeat. I aint gettin any younger, and you can't carry out this plan with rentals. is sole ownership ideal for me? no, probably not, I'd much prefer a partnership but I'm having no luck with that. I think with two people purchasing, assuming with a similar budget as mine, a J would be no problem but with just me I'm limited to these older C's, maybe an E or F, although I was shocked to see those 2 J's on the lasar link you provided above (still above my range, but not by too much and they look nice!). honestly I'd love a 200hp Arrow, but even some of the pre-IV's out there are pushing J price ranges. I am NOT looking for a project, and I'm not looking to purchase, then immediately have to invest almost the price of the plane in repairs. Bob's TOAST thread scares the bujeezus out of me for several reasons, but I'll focus on the $30K annual......something like that would crush me and pretty much put an end to flying whatever plane I might have that needed that kind of work. and there aren't any MSC's near the Charlotte area, which is also making a solid PPi a bit more difficult. and yes, there's a lot (for me) to learn. 1 Quote
bonal Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 Eman you a way ahead of the game and the learning curve. Your asking all the right questions and have found Mooney Space before you even do a PPI. My purchase experience went so different. Saw it on Controller flew down to have a look. Hmm this looks nice went for a quick test flight (first time in the left seat of a Mooney) and first time with a Johnson bar all went well next week flew my CFI friend down and brought it home. BOY HAVE I LEARNED A LOT since that day. There is a lot more to the story but you are on the right side of the page and patience is your biggest asset. Good luck to you. Quote
Browncbr1 Posted June 21, 2015 Report Posted June 21, 2015 If I were single without kids, and I am comparing unmodified planes with the same avionics, I would have an E. No doubt about it. There are many die hard C guys here and there were many more Cs manufactured.... There is a slight difference of overhaul cost, but I think you possibly get more miles out of an E because it's faster (less time enroute). I've seen great Es for sale in the low $30s... But, rarely all things are equal, and many Cs are well modified. A friend of mine had a C with 201 cowl and windshield and all gap seals, etc. and nice avionics. He really loved it, then got an ovation. I think if you found a super clean C that has a good waas panel GPS, good looking 6pack or glass panel, cowl and windshield mods, I would take that over a more originally equipped E if the price is similar. Quote
Yetti Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 Just because it is flying and in annual, does not necessary mean it is airworthy or that it won't need something big. There is a level of precision that sometimes gets lost in 40 years of maintenance. I was not interested in buying, but rental or partnership was not available. For me the plan was buy a plane expecting to go through every system. I would suggest any plane you buy that is 40/50 years old have about $10K in reserve ready to go. Then create a plan to work through each system. Hoses $1,100, Rebuild the 2axis autopilot $2200, Prop rebuild $3200, Mag rebuild 1000, fuel servo 1500. For me I like to work on things and I found a great person with an A&P that is also a craftsman. The positive there is one person could do the work, the second could check the others, Then we could recheck everything together. Being knowledgeable about mechanical things and being able to read a maintenance manual/service manual/parts manual and source parts are all good skills to have. The process took about 4 months. The good news is that there is a trust that can be put into the thing that takes me into the air. There are still things to do, but they will be taken care of in time. Quote
carusoam Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 Bob's Toast scares the Bs out of everyone... That is an abnormal occurrence. Corrosion stories have happened to people more often without having proper PPIs... Buying a used plane, car, boat, house requires a defensive strategy. Determine the quality of the plane. Determine the quality of the seller. Determine the quality of the storage. Determine the quality of the maintenance. Get some training. The second time you do this it is fun. I went from C to R, got my IR in between. Now back to price.... Get what your looking for first, then negotiate. No sense and talking about the price of a machine unless you intend to buy it. You already know how much you can afford. You have learned about some surprise costs that can show up. You have some understanding of financial risk. Keep looking to define what it is that you want. Start a conversation with the people selling those... When people say it is a buyer's market, they leave out an important piece of information. This is true until two buyers are interested in the same plane. Nothing more dissapointing than making the hard decision to buy, then lose the deal be caused the sale had already gone through. The nicer the plane, the faster some people come to see it. Missing paint, worn engine, leaking tanks, you can take your time. No need to rush to get into a financial disaster. I was in the business of buying and selling machines, -a- Quote
Browncbr1 Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 True, I see many planes still on the market 6-12 months later. Some sell within a couple weeks. There is a nice J for sale that was on the market for a long time because the tanks leaked. The owner flies 120 hours per year. I think it didn't sell because of the leaky tanks. Well, he just resealed the tanks and kept the price the same. Now it's a deal I think, but many people probably pass over the listing because they saw it a few months ago with leaky tanks. This example may be out of your price range, but just recheck old listings from time to time, as sometimes people update them. Quote
Urs_Wildermuth Posted June 22, 2015 Report Posted June 22, 2015 I sometimes have a bit of problems with advice of the "save another 10 years and buy an Ovation" type. First of all: What the heck do we know will be in 10 years? Will I still have a medical? Will i still have to money to buy anything let alone an upmarket airplane? When I went out to look for a new ride in 2009, I had my budget and I went in there with a totally open mind. Looked at what was available for what I could spend, tried out a few airplanes on the way, walked away for various reasons (none of the planes I looked at were maintenance challenged however, but some were simply not up to the mission, others were too expensive to maintain even with normal maintenance). I finally found my C model after looking at things like Cherokees, Arrow II, Robin HR100 and some others of that kind and found it would deliver the most bang for buck that I could spend. Never looked back. Did an engine overhaul and massive avionic upgrade but I am still very happy with my original purchase. What else will give me 150 kt at 8 GPH and that kind of maintenance bill? Could I have, now 6 years later, bought a more advanced plane? Maybe. None of the ones I looked at today for the accumulated price of my "C" has close to the avionic setup that I have (my airplane is now fully LPV and RNP0.1 certified) and all of them have some stuff that has to be done which drives the price up even further. Sure, I could find some "J" or even "K" models for that price, but I would have to go through the full upgrade once again with most of them. But even more importantly: I would not have been flying for the last 6 years. My advice here goes clearly in the direction of seizing the moment and going for something you can afford at the time, be conservative about it but by all means go for it. Don't wait until that elusive "perfect" plane comes along, you might be missing out all the fun in the mean time. Or never get there at all. 1 Quote
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