oh the stories

[bonal]

Sully couldn't have been a better spokesman for Aviation.. I've seen him often, even testifying before Congress.  Jeff Skiles , his F/O, but also a Capt that reverted to right seat due to layoffs and seniority, spoke at the EAA meeting at Sonoma Skypark where I often camp.. That's a strong chapter..
Unfortunately, it was a 10 min check list from 3000', and closing all the vent doors making the plane seaworthy was the last item..  Too bad that wasn't a memory item.

I think what made it The Miracle on the Hudson wasn't so much the landing as it was the rest of the circumstances that made it happen.
The plane was strong enough to hold together, though the landing attitude was important to hold right on,  the water was calm so no wing would dig in, and all the rescuers were on the scene in minutes..

An AA Capt friend of mine says their Ops manual requires them to engage the autopilot by 1500' AND if they do anything out of the ordinary, they get a call from the Chief pilot.. These guys are all losing their 'stick and rudder' skills..  Someone said it was lucky Sully was also a glider pilot,..meaning he had current stick and rudder skills, the same as any competent and current light aircraft pilot..Sully was a gentleman giving his crew full credit when all the press did was focus on him..

NOW, once again, many airlines are rethinking their training manuals, just as CRM was a big deal 20 yrs ago, Cockpit Resource Management..   Use your crew...   I had no qualms about speaking up.. Some guys appreciated my help, other's had too big an ego where I just kept my mouth shut unless real safety was at hand. (This was other than normal checklists)

Hell, a regular airline crew has to be route checked by a check airman so it becomes a milk run.
We, as "non-Scheds" would often land at airports for the first time, which is why CRM was so damn important along with an extensive pre-landing briefing..  Southern was the first Civilian AC to land at Kuwait after Desert Storm.  (Same with Rock & Roll, a different town every night.. Recall the commuter that didn't cross check their DG to the runway heading and used the short runway killing everyone except the F/O?)

The 707 I liked to 'hand fly'  up to about 18 K or so, after that as a swept wing airplane, it started to get a little squirrely, reason for an operating Yaw damper at altitude.. If inop, your altitude was restricted.  At Brown field in TX with no traffic,  I used to win bets just reducing the power to flight idle  at 10K and spot landing it.. (the FAA  frowns if not spooled up by 1000', but hell, no big deal like in a small plane if you've airspeed and altitude.)

In Africa, we had to make a 'combat' approach into Juba Sudan in the C-130.. Since the city was under siege, we had to spiral down from 15 k with a short final.. The good news was, the rebels agreed not to shoot at us if we brought the same amount of food to them in the afternoon.. (only picked up one little hole that went in and out hitting nothing..)  So, in the afternoon, the good guys were the bad guys and the bad guys were the good guys.. Catch -22 if I ever saw it.. Should have hired Milo Minderbinder...

But when we flew to the rebel camps, we still had to enter through Juba which was still in control by the Gov.. The Gov was Muslim, the rebels were Christian.. I'd file a flight plan which was unfortunately required, as the Gov Mig pilots would be "looking over my shoulder"..  I presume they'd use that to their advantage after we offloaded our food at the rebel camps...

The weird thing was, I thought the rebel camps had it better than the refuge camps in Juba were we had to 'clear' before leaving the country... After we offloaded, there was no way I could stop  about 50+ locals from jumping on the plane with their goats and chickens, so all I could do was tell them to stay in the center of the plane and hang onto the cargo straps..  What a zoo.

We landed in one place controlled by the Dinka Tribe.. everyone could have played on the Lakers..  The "jefe" was well over 7' tall wearing nothing but a loin cloth..which meant his thigh was at least 2' long..  I had to look twice, but guess what was sticking out the bottom, and the guy wasn't even hard... I guess those rumors are true..

One place we landed was Wau.. the very next day, the crew decided to use another 100' of runway before turning around and taxied over a tank mine.. It blew the nose up, but the crew got out OK with spinal injuries..  The nose burned back to the cockpit bulkhead and no further.   I saw a picture of the plane later, just sitting on it's tail, noting forward of the cockpit bulkhead.. I guess the engines just ran till it ran out of fuel...

So back in the US, landing at Indianapolis, the tower requested a 'short approach'.  They knew we didn't have pax.. SO, I gave them a combat approach, the rest of the crew saying nothing till after the landing.. It made them very nervous, but then they'd never flown out of the US or at least Africa.

 

[cliffy]

Good points made!

We now have an entire cadre' of pilots flying swept wing aircraft, higher than any 707 ever went, and they have ZERO experience hand flying above FL270 because of RVSM rules. I don't care how good the sim is (I've got hundreds of hours instructing in them) it ain't the same as doing it for real. I used to make all my copilots hand fly up high(I was a Check Airman with new hires) to see how it really was. Now, if someone losses an A/P at altitude it's going to be a fun ride.

In the A320 we went A/P on at 500'. Skills are being lost. Some never learn them (Asiana 777, SFO)

Most big jets are still just airplanes with higher speed numbers and lager inertia forces.

They will "slip" just like a Cub if done smoothly (757, 737, 727, etc)

They will "dead stick" if their individual limitations are accounted for- 727, 737 dead stick real well at Ref+30 (enough energy for a nice flare and smooth touchdown). Never try it on a 757- you need about 10 degrees of pitch up to arrest the sink for a smooth landing, THAT'S RIGHT AT THE ANGLE YOU DRAG THE TAIL AT!

No I never dragged the tail, just know not to do it.

[moodychief]

What's an autopilot...and a yaw damper? Never seen one on my plane!!!

[Loogie]

I disagree w the generic term of everyone loosing their stick and rudder skills. I fly w Capts that routinely fly to cruising alt. No rule against that in our company, I have never had a chief pilot call me and say why I didn't engage the autopilot at 1500ft, I have watched many Capts fly hands on approaches to very difficult situations, tough crosswinds, cat III approaches that have to be hand flown in our airplane due to the HUD Etc. I would not blink an eye at flying w out an autopilot with any of the guys I fly with. Be careful generalizing everyone's skills and assuming comments are correct. In my company you can hand fly to any altitude and hand fly down from any altitude. Automation is extremely helpful at reducing workload, but don't think for a minute that the average well trained crew can't fly without an autopilot. Or that they "lost" their stick and rudder skills.

[Bob - S50]

It all depends.  In the 757/767 I flew until I was cleaned up then let George have it.  I usually turned him off at about 2000' on final unless a go-around was a distinct possibility.  However, whenever things got rushed, my first reaction was to turn off the automation and hand fly.  Easier and quicker for me than figuring out how to get George to do it.  There is often a 5 second delay from input to the system until you see a reaction out of the autopilot.

 

In the DC9 I hand flew to 10,000' or first level off whichever came first and turned off the autopilot as soon as I heard 'cleared for the approach'.  Since the DC9 only had one autopilot, we even flew some flights when it was inop.  However, since we were allowed to refuse the plane with an inop autopilot, I would never drop one off at an out station like that and expect some other crew to fly it back.  I can remember flying Kalispel-Minneapolis, MInneapolis-Columbus, and Minneapolis-Winnipeg.  If the weather was nice and the other pilot was willing to fly one of the legs, I would take a plane out and back, but never just out.

 

Bob

[1964-M20E]

They will "dead stick" if their individual limitations are accounted for- 727, 737 dead stick real well at Ref+30 (enough energy for a nice flare and smooth touchdown). Never try it on a 757- you need about 10 degrees of pitch up to arrest the sink for a smooth landing, THAT'S RIGHT AT THE ANGLE YOU DRAG THE TAIL AT!

No I never dragged the tail, just know not to do it.

Yes the 737 dead sticks very well in the hands of a good pilot.  In the mid 80's TACA airlines dead sticked a 737 in New Orleans off airport the best  thing is they flew the plane out off the grass.    Who is worried about landing a Mooney on a grass strip.

[cliffy]

If one reads my OP carefully I stated "and entire cadre" meaning younger pilots that have never flown outside of RVSM rules. RVSM requires A/P in RVSM airspace. Check it out.

Many have never flown anything but a fully automated sweep wing jet with rules to let George do it ASAP.

Hence losing stick and rudder skills.

Many old heads have it wired and are fun to watch making the airplane sing and dance.

Before RVSM I've had copilots refuse to unhook George and hand fly at altitude!

BEFORE RVSM I had to take a 757 from JFK to LAS sans A/P. ALL were inop. Copilot flew 30 mins and then refused to fly anymore. I did 5 hrs hand flying that trip.

Have done HUD CAT IIIs in the sim. Pretty cool way to do it. 757 had to do it full auto. Used to do CAT IIIs in 727s with manual throttles. Tried to hand fly head down (with F/O brief) every 3rd or 4th approach in good Wx down to 50' AGL just to stay in the game.

[bonal]

No disrespect meant, just an account of one mans experience.

[Guest]

Here's something along the same lines.

https://m.youtube.com/results?q=children%20of%20the%20majenta&sm=3

Clarence

[cliffy]

Honestly none taken

Children of the Magenta Line is a classic example of where the automation and TV screens have taken us.

Has it improved things? Yes and No I feel it all depends on the pilot.

What we have is a generational shift in the flying paradigm. It seems to many old timers that flying now

is more concerned with what is in the cockpit than what the airplane is doing.

Obviously a new direction in the entire aviation game is at hand. To wax nostalgic about the old ways might be poking ones head in the sand but counter to that is ignoring those who have decades of experience. That can and does show up in accident statistics.

[Bob - S50]

I once had a DC9 captain on my DC9 jumpseat who had recently had a new regional jet pilot on his (steam gauge) DC9 jumpseat.  Not too long after level off the new pilot kept looking around the cockpit for a moving map and finally asked the captain, "how do you know where you are?"

 

Bob

[bonal]

It was Loogie that seemed upset by the story, Cliffy your comments were more supportive than any thing else. While he shall remain nameless the teller of the tail has had what I consider to be the most interesting and diverse flying career I have ever heard of.

[cliffy]

I once flew rt seat on a corporate DC9-10. 12 seats, full master suite, dining room for 6 and full kitchen/galley with 8 1/2 hrs range.

[DrBill]

Closing the vent doors would have been no help.. You have to SEE the plane and the damage.. It's at the Charlotte Air Museum and You can park right outside with previous contact (telephone) with the museum (at KCLT).  I worked on the display of the plane and have been invited back for several "reunions". I fly into CLT and Park outside the hangar. There is a 6 x 10 foot HOLE in the bottom where the river tore the aluminum away exposing the baggage compartment.  I stood in that hole and the head USAIR mechanic  told me about the damage (floor buckleing).  The display is well done.  The supports were designed by UNC Charlottte Engineering Students before the plane arrived based on Airbus drawings (the team lead got a job with Airbus). then the plane didn't fit.. It was BENT ! So a second team designed the support you see today.  Check it out. It's worth the admission.

In NY, they cut the wings off with a cutoff saw.  Made the reassembly in CLT that much more difficult.

The reunions are cool.  Many of the passengers come and sit in their "assigned seats" .  The supports are designed to hold the plane at the angle it was in the Hudson.

Pretty realistic.

Bill