Mooney Business Case?

[PMcClure]

Personally, I think the idea of Chinese business men being flown around in an Acclaim by a professional pilot is pure fantasy. Refurbishing J's could be a good business model for someone other than Mooney. It must take a lot of guts to invest in any GA company today and it will be interesting to see how this plays out. 

[DaV8or]

How is it possible to zero time the airframe?

 

Now, if Mooney could take in an old airframe and re-certify it as new 2014 with all the upgrades. That might have some value.

 

They can't do that. There is no such thing as a used airframe out there that does not have some level of corrosion. Much of it, you can't see. In addition, metal, particularly aluminum, fatigues with cycles. If an airframe has gone out in the world and flown, it is no longer new and the must retain it's recorded hours. The only way to certify it new again would be to replace all the metal with new. In addition, there is way too much liability for the factory to go messing around with refurbishments. That is likely why in the past they charged so much. They needed to try to cover their higher insurance premiums.

 

Bottom line is, if there was a strong business case for refurbished Ks, or even Js, there would be an independent company out there doing it now. There is no business case.

 

The only thing Mooney can do now is-

• Support the existing fleet of all Mooneys with parts, technical advise and possibly STCs to improve, or just keep them going.
• Build and try to sell some Ovations and Acclaims in the short term.
• Spend truck loads of Chinese dollars to develop a new 21st century airframe from the ground up in the long term.
• Eventually open factories in China to build this new airframe.

[Marauder]

Since we are soothsaying; here is my read on this. They will get the production facility operational in Kerrville, work out their marketing strategies, target market and begin building airplanes. Once the production has been established, then it will be outsourced to China to improve the bottom line.

[1964-M20E]

Since we are soothsaying; here is my read on this. They will get the production facility operational in Kerrville, work out their marketing strategies, target market and begin building airplanes. Once the production has been established, then it will be outsourced to China to improve the bottom line.

Yes sounds plausible. Use the smaller stature Chinese people to do all the riveting. CNC machines should be able to stamp, cut, press, drill etc. all pieces parts for the airframe and even have some robots dong a lot of the riveting, steel tube fabrication and welding to reduce labor costs even further.

 

 

Return the parts here for final inspection and assembly.

 

They still need to find a way to make an affordable J airframe and market it.  I know almost impossible.

[chrisk]

If I were running Mooney, I would be taking a hard look at 3D printing and composites.  Just imagine a Mooney with a composite wing and how fast it would be!  Engine mounts and landing gear could be 3D printed.  You could gain useful load, and several knots.

 

And it seems this technology is more available in China.

[DaV8or]

Since we are soothsaying; here is my read on this. They will get the production facility operational in Kerrville, work out their marketing strategies, target market and begin building airplanes. Once the production has been established, then it will be outsourced to China to improve the bottom line.

 

I don't think it will be outsourced so much as replicated in China. This is all about the Chinese market, not the American one. However, Chinese people don't like to buy Chinese brands, so the American Mooney name, history and legacy is needed for street credibility. To maintain that level of credibility, the factory in Kerrville will likely be retained. The very small number of aircraft destine for the American and European market will likely still be completely built, or at least final assembly here. Some labor intensive components might be outsourced, but the image of the legacy factory in the heart of Texas must be maintained. The lower cost, higher volume, "entry level" aircraft intended for the Chinese and developing Asian market will be made entirely in China, or perhaps Taiwan.

[chrisk]

I just saw the AOPA article with the turbo prop RV10.  http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/March/31/turboprop-RV10.aspx?WT.mc_sect=snf&WT.mc_id=140403special  It seems like the engine is about $60K and 240 hp.    Fuel burn is supposed to be around 18 gph in cruise.   I wonder if Mooney would consider a turbo prop for the international market, where 100LL is not as available.

[AndyFromCB]

There is not mooney business case other than becoming a TC holder and a reliable parts supplier for old airframes. For $700K, one would have to be mentally challenged to buy a Mooney. Let's see:

 

-800lb or so useful load in new Acclaim if TKSd and air-conditioned 

-shit for cowling/cooling design

-single door

-leaky tanks

-no landing gear per se

-run of the mill G1000 installation

-3 point seat belts

-no seat certification

-no parachute

 

Or let's take a look at Cirrus G5

-1200lb useful load TKSed and air-conditioned 

 

i could just stop there

[aviatoreb]

...one would have to be mentally challenged to buy a Mooney….

 

 

HEY!  I take resemblance to that statement!

[ArtVandelay]

There is not mooney business case other than becoming a TC holder and a reliable parts supplier for old airframes. For $700K, one would have to be mentally challenged to buy a Mooney. Let's see:

 

-800lb or so useful load in new Acclaim if TKSd and air-conditioned 

-shit for cowling/cooling design

-single door

-leaky tanks

-no landing gear per se

-run of the mill G1000 installation

-3 point seat belts

-no seat certification

-no parachute

 

Or let's take a look at Cirrus G5

-1200lb useful load TKSed and air-conditioned 

 

i could just stop there

If they converted to composite airframe, which would be lighter and stronger, they could fix your 1st four items.

[KSMooniac]

Composites aren't necessarily lighter and/or stronger!  

[aviatoreb]

Composites aren't necessarily lighter and/or stronger!  

 

Yes, but a well implemented composite CAN be lighter and stronger.

 

Imaging also a composite M20TN……it would be sleeker faster.

[aviatoreb]

There is not mooney business case other than becoming a TC holder and a reliable parts supplier for old airframes. For $700K, one would have to be mentally challenged to buy a Mooney. Let's see:

 

-800lb or so useful load in new Acclaim if TKSd and air-conditioned 

-shit for cowling/cooling design

-single door

-leaky tanks

-no landing gear per se

-run of the mill G1000 installation

-3 point seat belts

-no seat certification

-no parachute

 

Or let's take a look at Cirrus G5

-1200lb useful load TKSed and air-conditioned 

 

i could just stop there

 

We have had frost heaves in our taxiways this winter - I was pretty annoyed at the taxiways AND my uber-stuff landing gear today while taxiing oh-so slowly for prudence.

[AndyFromCB]

Hey,

 

I'm not knocking Mooney down ;-) I love my Bravo, all in with new engine and rest of the items brought to almost new condition under $200K for 200knot bird, I'm a pretty happy camper. However, $700K for an Acclaim. No way. If I wanted new, I'd buy a Cirrus, if I wanted used, I'd buy a Meridian. Mooney needs a complete new design and I don't think they have the cash or talent in house.

 

As to the pipe dreams of barebones M20J for $300K, they are just that. That is not what buyers want. Turbo charged Cirrus or Cessna 206 out sell their lower end brothers 6 to 1. 

[Rhumbline]

There is not mooney business case other than becoming a TC holder and a reliable parts supplier for old airframes. For $700K, one would have to be mentally challenged to buy a Mooney.

 

...or rich.  If money were no object, I'd even pay extra to get a stripped down example without all the glass, ice protection, etc.  Then again, my intellectual deficiencies are well known to anyone acquainted with me.

[DaV8or]

There is not mooney business case other than becoming a TC holder and a reliable parts supplier for old airframes. For $700K, one would have to be mentally challenged to buy a Mooney. Let's see:

 

-800lb or so useful load in new Acclaim if TKSd and air-conditioned 

-shit for cowling/cooling design

-single door

-leaky tanks

-no landing gear per se

-run of the mill G1000 installation

-3 point seat belts

-no seat certification

-no parachute

 

Or let's take a look at Cirrus G5

-1200lb useful load TKSed and air-conditioned 

 

i could just stop there

 

Not that you're particularly wrong in your assessment, but in the Acclaim's defense, it does do one thing better than the Cirrus- go fast. Don't know much about the cowling, but this is the first I've heard there is any real problem with it. Not sure at all what you mean about the landing gear. If you mean it doesn't have squishy suspension to salvage your bad landings, then that's true. Other than that, it retracts like a proper airplane should do, it's cheap to maintain and it's silly strong. What's not to love?

 

As to the seat belts, the Acclaim does have the airbag belts and that too me is pretty cool. I'll take that over the 4 point belt. Not sure what the seat certification buys you. Have there been lots of cases of Mooney seats busting loose? Don't forget the steel cage. I'll take the cage and aluminum over the plastic in a crash myself. 

 

Having said all that, I agree with you, it doesn't compete well in the market place with the Cirrus. Mooney does need a do over.

 

 

Mooney needs a complete new design and I don't think they have the cash or talent in house.

 

Actually, we have no idea how much money the Chinese backers have. They might have access to truck loads of the stuff and with money you can buy talent.

[aviatoreb]

Not that you're particularly wrong in your assessment, but in the Acclaim's defense, it does do one thing better than the Cirrus- go fast. 

 

Quite right - it is THE fastest certified single in existence. And quite a bit faster than the Cirrus, and a bit faster than the Columbia/CessnaTTX.  Some folk always want the "bestest/fastest" of any thing.  So that gives it a niche, even if a small niche.

 

The same logic would say that no one would ever buy a Ferrari or a Porche since you could just buy a nice Honda.

 

Besides that, I am not a fan of the "road feel" of the Cirrus with that side stick.  Nonetheless - I never met an airplane I didn't like and Cirrus is a fine airplane.

[AndyFromCB]

Quite right - it is THE fastest certified single in existence. And quite a bit faster than the Cirrus, and a bit faster than the Columbia/CessnaTTX.  Some folk always want the "bestest/fastest" of any thing.  So that gives it a niche, even if a small niche.

 

The same logic would say that no one would ever buy a Ferrari or a Porche since you could just buy a nice Honda.

 

Besides that, I am not a fan of the "road feel" of the Cirrus with that side stick.  Nonetheless - I never met an airplane I didn't like and Cirrus is a fine airplane.

 

Honda would be a wrong comparison. We are talking about very rarified world here: people who can drop $700K on a toy. Most of that crowd drives a bmw/mb/lexus, not a porsche. They are willing to give up last 5% of performance for %100 percent increase in comfort and utility. You can't have a sustainable company on 10 aircraft sales per year.

[AndyFromCB]

"As to the seat belts, the Acclaim does have the airbag belts and that too me is pretty cool. I'll take that over the 4 point belt. Not sure what the seat certification buys you. Have there been lots of cases of Mooney seats busting loose? Don't forget the steel cage. I'll take the cage and aluminum over the plastic in a crash myself. "

 

Tell that to formula 1 drivers or Diamond DA40 drivers. Properly designed composite structure is a ton safer than anything you can build from steel and/or aluminum. Cirrus hasa 4 point harness with an airbag as well and it keeps you a much better position to be protected by such airbag than a 3 point harness. The panel is much father away and there is not yoke to break your face. As to 26g seats, goes a long way towards preventing injuries as well, especially lower back injuries during landing accidents. 

 

Like I said before, I love my mooney, but it is what it is. An airframe stretched to its maximum potential at this point with no future. Same can be said about A36 or most Cessnas.

[KSMooniac]

The 26g seats (now required for new planes) are a good advancement in survivability.  They are really, really needed with the modern composite airframes, though, since they do not provide energy dissipation to the extent legacy metallic airframes do, and especially our Mooneys with the steel cage.  The airbag seat belts seem like a great advancement as well, and especially nice for Mooneys with the close instrument panel and yoke. 

[aaronk25]

In the short term mooney should redesign the gear to get the useful load up to where cirrus is. I mean why buy a expensive airplane with almost 300hp where the 4 seats can't be filled. On a 300hp turbo airplane if you can fit it in the doors it will take off with the load so power isn't a issue......I'd work on the gear and then redesign to modernize the occupant cabin when funds become available.

[BigTex]

Anyone notice that our favorite shell company (Soaring America) posted several jobs around the design and manufacturing of carbon fiber components? 

 

http://www.linkedin.com/jsearch?searchLocationType=Y&page_num=1&sortCriteria=DD&keepFacets=&facet_COMPANY=3547220

 

I suspect CF parts are not far form Mooney's future.

[DaV8or]

In the short term mooney should redesign the gear to get the useful load up to where cirrus is. I mean why buy a expensive airplane with almost 300hp where the 4 seats can't be filled. On a 300hp turbo airplane if you can fit it in the doors it will take off with the load so power isn't a issue......I'd work on the gear and then redesign to modernize the occupant cabin when funds become available.

 

Unfortunately, increased gross weight has much more to it than just beefy landing gear. A lot of it has to do with how the airplane behaves in flight. Weight and balance, stall speeds, spin characteristics and of course structural elements. One has to remember that Mooney has been milking as much a possible out of a little airframe that started off 160 hp and largely made of wood. Even if you consider the real beginning to be the 180 hp M20B, they have stretched and tweaked this plane probably about as much as they can with out a whole do over.

 

 

Anyone notice that our favorite shell company (Soaring America) posted several jobs around the design and manufacturing of carbon fiber components? 

 

http://www.linkedin....COMPANY=3547220

 

I suspect CF parts are not far form Mooney's future.

 

This is all about the do over. Like I said above, in the world of brand new airplanes, there is little to no future for the M20.

[carusoam]

You may consider posting that here....

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11451-aviation-related-jobs/?hl=%2Bjobs+%2Baviation

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Dave,

I think the issue is more long body related where there is a MGTW and a lower landing GW. Specifically related to landing gear.

The difference is about an hour of fuel, approximately 100 pounds or so. It handles all phases of flight at the high MGTW, but needs to drop the 100lbs prior to landing...

These numbers are from memory, a really fuzzy memory....

That's how I understand it, anyway...

Best regards,

-a-