fantom Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 Fantom, did you get sufficient pictures? Did you look at my CYA-100 thread? Yes....pictures and clips were good. Average time to install? Quote
Bennett Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 Add me to the list for a group buy Quote
Marauder Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 Just a quick update. I got an email back from my mechanic. He sent me a copy of the Alpha letter. He did not indicate he received this from the FAA and I sent a reply back asking him if this is "THE" letter he mentioned to me on the phone. Either way, in his email he stated he believes the letter to Alpha from the Small Airplane Directorate is applicable to other AoA indicators if they meet the requirements spelled out by the letter. He also felt it should be a simple install based on the installation instructions I sent to him from Rip's site. My only concern about the letter is that it specificallly states that it applies to the Alpa AoA system. Either way, I'm in. Quote
fantom Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 ....He also felt it should be a simple install based on the installation instructions I sent to him from Rip's site. Great! Maybe we can do a beta test in the dents Mooney 1 Quote
wishboneash Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 We have 10 or more who are in. So are we going to send the money to Rip directly along with our postal address? Quote
John Pleisse Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 I am unclear...how are we purchasing this? Directly from the site? When and at what discount? 1 Quote
RocketAviator Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 Just a quick update. I got an email back from my mechanic. He sent me a copy of the Alpha letter. He did not indicate he received this from the FAA and I sent a reply back asking him if this is "THE" letter he mentioned to me on the phone. Either way, in his email he stated he believes the letter to Alpha from the Small Airplane Directorate is applicable to other AoA indicators if they meet the requirements spelled out by the letter. He also felt it should be a simple install based on the installation instructions I sent to him from Rip's site. My only concern about the letter is that it specificallly states that it applies to the Alpa AoA system. Either way, I'm in. Marauder, I have the Alpha unit and the letter that came with it, let me see what it says. While it is Brand X, here is some good INPUT. A link that may well be worth everyone that is planning to purchase and install or have one of these AOA's http://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/Spreadsheet%20Files/Electronic%20Manual%20Rev%20D_2.pdf Lacee Quote
David Mazer Posted January 10, 2014 Report Posted January 10, 2014 Marauder, I've seen the Alpha System letter. It is included in Rip's documentation also. My IA was a little more conservative and wants either a specific letter about the CYA-100 or a more general letter that clearly covers all AOAs that fit the description. Fantom, Bnicolette - average install time is pretty easy. Since I've only done one the math works out - I don't think I spent more than a couple hours doing the entire installation and another 5 hours at home making one housing after another until I was satisfied! If you have any experience making a housing, I'm sure yours will go much faster. I kept thinking this would be a great application for a 3D printer. The toughest part was getting the wiring from the outside into the plane. I finally found a hole in the floor the wires fit through. Someone asked right or left wing. I installed mine on the left for no particular reason but Rip noted above that since most patterns are left, the left wing is more prone to stalling fist and so that is where most are placed. Rip, how would you like to handle the paperwork? Quote
PTK Posted January 11, 2014 Report Posted January 11, 2014 Great! Maybe we can do a beta test in the dents Mooney Shift+4 is my friend! Quote
Bennett Posted January 11, 2014 Report Posted January 11, 2014 I spoke to the shop manager who will do my installation as a "minor repair". They are currently installing an Alpha system on a Mooney, and feel the"letter" is sufficiently inclusive to allow this for the CYA-100 system. 1 Quote
Marauder Posted January 11, 2014 Report Posted January 11, 2014 I spoke to the shop manager who will do my installation as a "minor repair". They are currently installing an Alpha system on a Mooney, and feel the"letter" is sufficiently inclusive to allow this for the CYA-100 system. Same with my mechanic Bennett. Here are his exact words "The general consensus is that the letter is not an approval that applies to an individual manufacturer, but rather it establishes a clarification of FAA policy that can be applied to all angle of attack systems that are of the same or similar design. The FAR’s state that it is up to the installing mechanic to determine if an alteration is major or minor (i.e. Me)." He goes on to say the FAA is allowing the IAs more latitude on installing some items that would have required a field approval or STC in the past. He also warned that some FSDOs may take a different stance on these interpretations from the SPD, which may end up being an internal issue for the SPD to resolve. Bottom line, he will install it. I'm in. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
rq3 Posted January 11, 2014 Report Posted January 11, 2014 Rip, how would you like to handle the paperwork? David, many thanks for driving this. Probably the easiest way is a rebate for anyone that orders via check or PayPal from the website (http://www.ackemma.com/buy.html) during the month of January. Just mention "Mooneyspace" in the order, and I'll include a check for $39.50 in the shipment (10% off the purchase price of $395). I'm also happy to take personal checks, but they have to clear first. Just write "Mooneyspace" in the comment line of the check. As I mentioned, these things are currently built in batches. Expect 2 weeks for delivery ARO. Rip Quote
M016576 Posted January 11, 2014 Report Posted January 11, 2014 I just don't understand how to explain that it is the ASI that is more likey to lead you to the 5 kts mistake than the AOA when you are heavier than you expect on a hotter day than usual and your stall speed has increased more than you think it will. The AOA makes it possible to always, if you chose, to approach at 1.3 VSO rather than possibly at 1.1 without knowing it. Of all the areas of aviation (military, commercial, GA), the military depends, and maybe the A/P logic in airlines too for all I know, on AOAs to maintain safety under the most difficult environments and they do very well at it. Why shouldn't we learn from their success?That's exactly right. I'm wondering if PTK and company are thinking about the AOA indicator backwards... Ie in their minds they may be thinking that the air speeds are the truth data, and the AOA is some sort of derivative of this..... To those that think that AOA is "more dangerous", and that you need to learn to control your airspeed... Think about it this way: You, as a pilot, only control your lift scalar via power (throttle). Every time you move the controls, what you're actually doing is changing your Lift Vector. If you pull back or push forward, you are directly controlling your lift vector through your angle of attack, and that's what causes you to stall, whether you're at idle or full power... Doesn't matter (yes, you can stall at 110 kts: just pull back for all you're worth while in a 60 degree turn at 150kts.. Edit: don't actually do this, as you'll over-stress your mooney probably prior to reaching corner velocity.. My point is that you can enter accelerated stalls- the speeds in your POH are for 1G). You're airspeed indicator is a "one off" way of measuring lift- and as a result you need tables upon tables of air speeds to do the job of one number: angle of attack. Need more proof? Look at the spread of airspeed numbers you need based on the gross weight of your aircraft for maneuvering speed, or best glide, in the POH. In a J, those speeds vary by 15 kts between 2250lbs and 2900lbs loaded. Now, ask yourself this question: when was your plane last weighed? How confident are you that your ASI is showing 0 error? And how thorough is your ability to know your current gross weight of your aircraft (do you add up all the tools and accessories you have shoved into the back pockets of the seats)? With an angle of attack indicator, you will always know the proper attitude for landing, for best glide and for maneuvering. Because it's the same number... Every time. No matter what. Air speeds you calculate are, and always will be just an estimation. Am I saying "it's unsafe to fly without an AOA indicator"? No. But what I am saying is that if you really want to know how your wing is performing- you can't figure that out using an ASI. An AOA indicator allows you to be much more precise in your landings, and in your maneuvering flight. And as a safety tool: it's just Another warning system that can keep you out of trouble that you may not even realize you're in with the ASI alone. When I was flying F-18's, we referred to our angle of attack as our "speed." We had three "speeds". Fast, on speed and slow. If you're slow, you ease off the backstick pressure to get "on speed" and add power to increase lift. If you're fast, you add backstick pressure to get "on speed" and the. Reduce throttle to decrease lift. If you're on speed, you're all set! What airspeed is on speed? Who cares. Doesn't matter. In the hornet, on speed occures at 8.1 degrees true angle of attack (in a GA aircraft 1.3 * stall seems to be the going rate for on speed AOA). That's useful to know, because if you're on speed and you set the whiskey line on the 5 degree up scribe on an attitude indicator, then you're on a 3 degree glideslope. These applications are just as valid and useful for GA as they are for flying a F-18 or F-15. That's the beauty of aerodynamics... 6 Quote
BobAustin Posted January 11, 2014 Report Posted January 11, 2014 Just entered my order for CYA-100. Quote
Marauder Posted January 11, 2014 Report Posted January 11, 2014 Just placed my order as well. Another tidbit to add to Mo's comment. If you ever get behind the power curve (something Don Kaye mentioned in this or another thread) I think I would rather have an AoA indicator than an ASI only. Early in my Mooney flying career I had the experience on a hot summer day, fully loaded to get myself behind the power curve while landing. I did not realize the severity of the situation because it only became apparent when I decided to go around because I wasn't lined up right on the runway. After adding full power I realized I couldn't climb out of ground effect. My nose was high, the stall warning was blaring and raw adrenaline aroma was filling the cockpit. It took everything in my will power to push that nose down within feet of the ground to build up airspeed and start cleaning up the plane. Lesson learned. I wish I had an AoA indicator back then. I really believe it may have helped me understand where I was headed relative to weight on that day. Considering the number of Mooney landing accidents, I wonder how many were because of caring too much speed? 1 Quote
rq3 Posted January 11, 2014 Report Posted January 11, 2014 Just entered my order for CYA-100. BobAustin, order received! Many thanks, and it will ship next Tuesday (you got the first of the last two I have in stock). I'll follow up with the tracking number. Please, please don't hesitate to contact me with any questions, suggestions, complaints, kudos, or just general philosophical comments. Rip Quote
rq3 Posted January 11, 2014 Report Posted January 11, 2014 Just placed my order as well. Marauder, order received! Many thanks, and it will ship next Tuesday (you got the second of the last two I have in stock). I'll follow up with the tracking number. Please, please don't hesitate to contact me with any questions, suggestions, complaints, kudos, or just general philosophical comments. Parts are in process for the next couple of batches. As a thought on the rest of your post, many decades ago, I used to rent a Mooney from an FBO in Hayward, CA. At that time, they were averaging 7 prop strikes A MONTH due to porpoising. I don't think you could find an insurance carrier for that operation today. Rip 1 Quote
PTK Posted January 12, 2014 Report Posted January 12, 2014 I'm wondering if PTK and company are thinking about the AOA indicator backwards... Ie in their minds they may be thinking that the air speeds are the truth data, and the AOA is some sort of derivative of this..... No! If you go back and read my posts you'll see that I said the air speeds are derived from AOA. I also said other things pertaining to our envelope and why we don't need it, that I don't care to repeat. Quote
fantom Posted January 12, 2014 Report Posted January 12, 2014 No! I also said other things pertaining to our envelope and why we don't need it, that I don't care to repeat. Good, because most of us don't care to read it again. Your continued arguing of issues with people who are so much more knowledgeable and experienced about them than you does a disservice to the board IMO. 3 Quote
aviatoreb Posted January 12, 2014 Report Posted January 12, 2014 No! If you go back and read my posts you'll see that I said the air speeds are derived from AOA. I also said other things pertaining to our envelope and why we don't need it, that I don't care to repeat. PTK, this whole thread has been a discussion amongst aviators, discussing AOA - both the AOA indicator units, but also AOA as an aeronautical concept - this is a fundamental concept in flying. But you have jumped into the whole thing and treated it as an argument that you wish to win. Right or wrong in your points, your whole perspective on this discussion has been side-tracking. I am just bewildered how you can approach M016576 thread above which such disdain. He is a former Naval aviator, I believe (correct me if I am wrong), Naval test pilot school, and currently an air force CFI in the F15. He has been addressing us as a fellow Mooney aviator. I believe he is correct in the engineering points of his discussion, and patient in coming back to try again to educate. In any case, believe him or not, it would be ok to just nod head and let it rest. He wants an AOA for his own personal plane. Or is he wrong as you keep saying, and he should get more training and learn how to fly? He reports on the 2013-hours thread, 110 hrs mooney, 175 f15, and 100hrs f15 simulator (training). But you are right he should get more training before he gets an AOA. Likewise others with extremely high training, experience and knowledge have been rebuffed they need more training before they should get an AOA. Guys like master Mooney CFI instructor Don Kaye (reports 293 hours in 2013...less than usual he says) or Ward who is some kind of coorporate pilot/cfi as far as I can tell from the experience he mentions. Or even me - I can definitely use more training and I DO work on more training. But I am a math professor with a good deal of experience professionally in fluid dynamics, and I have been well trained theoretically in AOA long before I ever learned to fly. Can't I have an AOA AND also train more to fly better? I am currently working on my commercial. I do not claim to be an expert by any means, either in flying or even in all things aerospace engineering. But I know what AOA is and I went out of my way to have one installed in my airplane. Even though it is not a replacement for training as you seem to imply it is one or the other, I have chosen the "combination-platter" - I chose both an AOA indicator and more training. It is my opinion that most people who are motivated specifically to install an AoA in their airplane, are more likely to learn what is AoA as an aeronautical concept. That is the beginning of learning more about flying. I think a few folks it seems here have become more educated recently on this topic as a direct result of this thread. I think this thread has been a shining example what Mooneyspace can be - sharing information and thinking deeply about aeronautical concepts with aviators of all different experiences. But forget the topic for a minute. Whatever someone says you seem to come back and say they are wrong. Eventually you have won this argument so it seems (and we all thought it was a discussion), by sheer exhaustion - many of the posters stopped addressing you, but have been addressing each other and ignoring and working around your rebuffs. Ok, I am standing by PTK - tell me how I am wrong. I am done and you can have the last word. 5 Quote
DaV8or Posted January 12, 2014 Report Posted January 12, 2014 As a thought on the rest of your post, many decades ago, I used to rent a Mooney from an FBO in Hayward, CA. At that time, they were averaging 7 prop strikes A MONTH due to porpoising. I don't think you could find an insurance carrier for that operation today. Rip I don't understand how that is even possible. If the engine requires a tear down and inspection after a prop strike, how do you get seven strikes in during the month. Those must be some speedy mechanics. I never saw that plane, but I heard about it. It was a J I think. Was told it was a total POS. Quote
rq3 Posted January 12, 2014 Report Posted January 12, 2014 I don't understand how that is even possible. If the engine requires a tear down and inspection after a prop strike, how do you get seven strikes in during the month. Those must be some speedy mechanics. I never saw that plane, but I heard about it. It was a J I think. Was told it was a total POS. They had several, actually many, Mooneys. I wished I remebered the number and the name of the FBO. And back in the day, there was no engine tear-down requirement. Dial the crank and slap on another prop. Pretty scary! Rip Quote
Marauder Posted January 12, 2014 Report Posted January 12, 2014 As I previously mentioned, I am non committal on this technology. I'm willing to try it because if it does appear to offer some refinement or additonal information over the ASI I have been using. If this is the case, then it has been a success for me. I doubt there is one Mooney owner out there that has not floated a landing. Was this because they came in too fast on the ASI or too fast based on their landing weight? I think this is the refinement the tool can offer. When I get mine installed, I will be objective and report what I experience. AND as I also mentioned, I have watched a number of Mooney landings that I videotaped or saw first hand from the edge of the runway. Maybe it is simply a matter of speed control and not using the ASI correctly, but many, many Mooneys are landed too fast. Will an AoA help? I'm going to find out. If it doesn't, then it will end up in the toy box right next to the LORAN receiver... Quote
bumper Posted January 12, 2014 Report Posted January 12, 2014 BobAustin, order received! Many thanks, and it will ship next Tuesday (you got the first of the last two I have in stock). I'll follow up with the tracking number. Please, please don't hesitate to contact me with any questions, suggestions, complaints, kudos, or just general philosophical comments. Rip Rip Okay, comin' off the fence and placed my order too! bumper I placed my order directly via PayPal on the CYA-100 website . . . is there a group buy discount?? Did I miss out (as usual)? If there's a group buy, I'd be happy to organize another on both the Husky and BackCountryPilot web sites . . . Quote
David Mazer Posted January 12, 2014 Report Posted January 12, 2014 Marauder, you won't be dissappointed. You'll enjoy the security of KNOWING what speed to fly and you should see a significant improvement, assuming you need any, in your landings once you trust the information. It took me a few trips to altitude to confirm it was really working since it slowed me down so much I was uncomfortable on approach until I was sure. Bumper, it is a group buy and you need to ammend your order to show MooneySpace on your order for Rip to know it qualifies for the discount. For the benefit of you Husky fliers you might want to start this anyway. The use of an AOA is even more importnt on short and soft fields. You'd have to ask Rip if the group buy would apply there and how many would be required. 1 Quote
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