Dugosh for annual inspections - anybody have current experience to share?

[Rich]

I am in the eastern area of the USA (GA). I just got my M20R back from Daytona Aircraft Services- a Mooney service facility. Their base price is $1,750 for the inspection. They found landing gear tension low and adjusted it ($85/hr. shop rate). I do much of my basic maintenance. I just replaced tires/tubes, brake linings, oil and filter. My annual was slightly less than $2,100 so $4K + sounds a little high, although I hear only good things about them.

[chrisk]

Since this is a discussion about Dugosh, and not ALL service centers in the network, as some other posters want to have, I will share my opinion on Dugosh. 

 

I ran the network for a number of years, and I have actually had my tool box at Dugosh working on aircraft (in my spare time) and one of these days I hope to buy it from Ronnie if he ever gets ready to retire. 

 

Vanette and the guys in the shop have 20 - 30+ years (each) working specifically on Mooney aircraft. 

 

Steve is (in my opinion) the best Mooney mechanic in the network. His sheet metal skills, engine skills are amazing. I have seen him repair crash damage aircraft that I personally would have pushed off into the weeds. 

 

Issues/comment that I have personally seen or heard from customers:

 

Not receiving a itemized estimate of needed repairs. Once the inspection is completed you need to make sure that Vanette gives you a list of needed repairs. You need to make sure you approve (in writing with confirmation) on the repairs you are wiling to pay for, and make sure you understand the cost of said repair. The final bill should be within 10% of the written approved repair cost. 

 

Late deliveries: Sometimes they (as with all Mooney service centers) have issues with getting parts from Mooney. IF you have some type of damage that requires a Mooney specific part, your delivery date might get pushed out while waiting for the part. BUT, Dugosh and Vanette specifically has a knack for finding spares. 

 

Over booked: They are very popular. Sometimes they get overbooked and that turns into a late delivery. Ronnie has a hard time saying "NO" to customers, especially his long term customers that "drop in" for an oil change or needed repair. 

 

High repair costs: Surprise, you never had your Mooney in for an inspection at a "real" Mooney service center, and the inspection and repairs are much higher than your previous inspection. Surprise! You last mechanic might be a good mechanic, but he is not a good Mooney mechanic, or he wants to keep your business so he deferred the non airworthy issues (or didn't write them up, saving them for next year). Ronnie and the boys write up EVERYTHING they find. So be ready for a shock. 

 

Ronnie does not like talking with people about BAD NEWS, so be ready to talk with the mechanics or Vanette. If you ask to talk with Ronnie on the phone, you are going to get frustrated. That is his personality so be ready. He loves airplanes, not conflicts with customers. Ronnie is a nice guy and a fantastic mechanic. He just does not like delivering bad news or information that he thinks will upset the customers. 

 

Engine; Ronnie and Steve are perfectionist on the Engine, they will set up your engine to run perfectly. Therefore if they find an issue they will make sure you know about it (IE over 500 hours on mags, fuel setup not right, not generating the right RPM, leaking prop seal, oil pan gaskets, push rod tunes and on and on and on.). This can get expensive. 

 

Flight controls and Gear Rigging: Be ready. If you allowed someone else to rig your gear or flight controls, they will fix it. Steve is VERY good at rigging. He has spent many hours walking me through it. 

 

That's all I can think of right now. 

 

Good choice in service center. 

 

R

You are right when you say they will tell you everything that needs attention on your plane.   In my mind, this is really what you want.  I have also been very happy with work from David too.

[richardheitzman]

You are right when you say they will tell you everything that needs attention on your plane.   In my mind, this is really what you want.  I have also been very happy with work from David too.

Dave is great as well, didn't mean to leave him out. He is also good at fixing avionics / electrical issues. 

[garytex]

I had my prebuyn at Dugosh.  I hung around while it was done and learned a lot.  My previous owner obviously  

[garytex]

had a relationship with them, they greeted him warmly by his first name when he arrived even though his previous annual was done by someone else in the area whose name I had never heard.  

During the prebuy, amongst the myriad of things that were going on over the course of several hours, I noticed that one of the head mechanics very quietly and with no fanfare brought out what I thought was, and now recognize as, a borescope.  He looked in the cylinders.  "Whats that?"  "Oh it's an new piece of equipment we've been trying".  No further comment, and walked promptly away.  A short while later I notice the same mechanic is having an obviously private and quiet conversation with the previous owner.   

I get my list of squawks, compressions all above 70, and the usual little stuff and one big thing that runs to about $7K.  I know enough about airplane repair to recognize that these prices represent the absolute upper edge of shop rate and estimated time and markup on parts, but this is Dugosh, the best of the best, and ultimately I have them perform the list. 

The deal is no help from seller on squawks, take it or leave it. But that's fine, that's the deal I cut.  Previous owner now produces a letter for me to sign, in addition to the AOPA contract we are using (it didn't look anything like his other paperwork that he brought from home, different paper, different font) which says "you are taking this plane as is and with all faults, and I am not responsible for anything that might break after the sale."  Thats also fine, that's the way airplanes are bought and sold.      

"Now we are going to tell you how to fly your airplane.  Ol 'previous owner' knows his stuff, rich of peak is where he runs it (which is true, I flew with him, 50 df ROP at 75% of power), keep doing that."  So within the next 30 hrs I have to replace a jug with a burnt valve and an easily visible and ultimately unrepairable crack that runs from the lower spark plug boss to the exhaust valve, and 40 hrs later another jug, also with a burned exhaust valve.

 

You can see burning valves with a bore scope 30 to 50 hrs before they go according to Mike Busch, and according to my good honest mechanic that I had been using and that I continue use and trust.  Did they see the burning valves and not tell me?  Did they see the burned clean arcs on the edges of the valves and not know what they were? Could they not see the big crack? I don't know what he saw. I'll probably never know.

 

Quote from above "Ronnie does not like talking with people about BAD NEWS, so be ready to talk with the mechanics or Vanette. If you ask to talk with Ronnie on the phone, you are going to get frustrated. That is his personality so be ready. He loves airplanes, not conflicts with customers. Ronnie is a nice guy and a fantastic mechanic. He just does not like delivering bad news or information that he thinks will upset the customers. 

 

All the parties knew the sale of that airplane was dependent on the pre buy.  Time to tell the hard truths, even if that may upset the sale.

 

Again, I do not know that is what happened.  But it does have a little smell to it.  I will not go back to Dugosh, even though they are located very close to me.  I will not go back under any circumstance.  Right now I really need someone to work on my Mooney (Brittain) Autopilot.  They know how.  I'm still not going.  Taking it there literally hadn't even crossed my mind, and I have been thinking about where to go to find that specialized knowledge, (maybe Tulsa, maybe Maxwell) for several months.    

 

At least I had enough sense to quit running 50df rich of peak.  The cylinders ran hotter than a son of a bitch that way.  At high % ages of power I ran 150 ROP on the first couple of flights as I learned the airplane, and very promptly started running up high enough that WOT yielded less than 75%.  I've put about around 400 hrs on it over the last couple of years running 40 to 50 df LOP around 8.5 gph max, with cool cyls, no problems, and glowing reports from oil analysis and borescope exams.

 

That was one of my more expensive lessons.  And for those of you that know the old joke, "NO! I do not want to go camping" anymore.

[aaronk25]

I'm done with the Texas MSC's and the prices they charge for annuals. Prices seem inflated to some extent and the end result and service isn’t always commensurate with that price...Maxwell's shop included. Its not imposible to find a similar knowledge base and level of experience in a local mechanic for alot less in many cases.

Well don't go to far north either because since Bruce sold Willmar that shop has went down the toilet. Had my gear up repair done there and the list of items improperly repaired exceeded 20! Things like taking logging a prop governor as overhauled without touching it, loose alternator, cut ils cables in the tail do to improperly routing them after reassembling the tail after transport, not hooking up rear running light, mags timed 6 and 7 degrees off with a loose coil in one and way to much grease in both, loose nuts on ends of push rods, double stacked bungees....the list goes on and on.

The bad thing is a year following the repairs I spent thousands correcting the hack job Willmar did and during my next annual (not done at Willmar) the shop (dodge center aviation Chuck Willette, fantastic mechanic) found $7,300 worth of issues directly resulting from the unairworthly work Willmar did. The only thing that made this partly right is Willmar cut a check to my shop for $7,300 to fix the discrepancies. They reimbursed me another $4,000 for paint repairs I never received. Maybe this was them standing behind there work or maybe it was me telling them if they didn't agree to pay my next call was to the local FSDO, not sure which the only thing I know is they cost me months of downtime and around another $5k of my own money.

Moral of the story? No matter how good the reputation of a shop is, it's just that a reputation. Inspect what you expect and do your homework to ensure there hasn't been any changes to the shop that could have an negative impact on your experience.

This pirep is no reflection of weep no more as that is a separate business which is also located at Willmar and my pirep for them is 11 out of 10.

Feel free to pm me with questions.

[John Pleisse]

Gary, (TX), you walked into a hornet's nest of "home cooking". Shops are only "the best" if you are paying the bill. Pre buys run 65% the cost of an annual (base cost, a good pre buy). So, I always write a pre-purchase agreement that would involve a pre buy that flows into an annual at my expense, in my shop, with a mutual kick at any point. While seemingly over the top, this has saved me from three really bad A36s, one horrific B55 and got me the 201 of a life time.

 

Once the plane is cracked open, the seller becomes immediately accountable. Unairworthy? You walk and the seller is grounded. Conventional wisdom suggests no shady seller would agree to this. I had three and almost a fourth. In one case, the Beech Service Center at Leesburg, VA actually called Continental to report the serial number after finding .."the worst engine corrosion ...they had ever seen". The seller had to fly himself and his A&P up from Mississippi and get a ferry permit on their own.

 

I was in the area and called Dugosh once. They were backed up almost 4 weeks. I have a 15 year relationship with Weber. They do excellent work. PM me if you need a reference. There are two MSC's I'd never recommend.

 

Good shops weed out bad customers. Whine about the bill? Pay late? They mysteriously become overbooked and can't help you. Bring them a basket case for the first time, unprepared to deal with it? Yeah, your bill will be terrible. Have them get the plane up to par and get a handle on everything, then maintain an established relationship? The annual bills stay under control.

[garytex]

I paid for the pre buy. That's one of the things that rankles.

[fantom]

Pre buys run 65% the cost of an annual (base cost, a good pre buy). So, I always write a pre-purchase agreement....

Once the plane is cracked open, the seller becomes immediately accountable. Unairworthy? You walk and the seller is grounded. Conventional wisdom suggests no shady seller would agree to this......

Maybe no shady seller and probably no reasonable one either. Shady and unreasonable buyers are just as prevalent in my experience. If I'm an honest seller, why would I ever a agree to letting someone I don't know open my engine, and then have a potential buyer I don't know have the option to walk away with me holding the bag to pick up the pieces?? Only a desperate or dumb seller would agree, and thus the chance of an ugly result increases.

I would love to read your pre purchase agreement

[John Pleisse]

Maybe no shady seller and probably mo reasonable one either. Shady and unreasonable buyers are just as prevalent in my experience. If I'm an honest seller, why would I ever a agree to letting someone I don't know open my engine, and then have a potential buyer I don't know have the option to walk away with me holding the bag to pick up the pieces?? Only a desperate or dumb seller would agree, and thus the chance of an ugly result increases. I would love to read your pre purchase agreement

 

Correct, but alas, we haven't considered the "Beech Factor". Generally unreasonable, inept owners who overprice their planes, are unaware of their condition and are delusional in their expectations. Particularly the ownership segment under the $150k mark.

[mike_elliott]

I just helped a friend purchase a 201, we had Don Maxwell do the prebuy that was rolled into an annual. Dons guys will squawk everything, as it should be. The fact that they did made the sale actually happen, as the squawks were addressed to both the buyer's and sellers satisfaction. I have about 6 hours in this plane now, and feel my friend got a heck of a deal, largely in part because of the prebuy identifying and correcting squawks. Don was more than fair on his pricing, IMHO

[chrisk]

Maybe no shady seller and probably mo reasonable one either. Shady and unreasonable buyers are just as prevalent in my experience. If I'm an honest seller, why would I ever a agree to letting someone I don't know open my engine, and then have a potential buyer I don't know have the option to walk away with me holding the bag to pick up the pieces?? Only a desperate or dumb seller would agree, and thus the chance of an ugly result increases. I would love to read your pre purchase agreement

 

The last plane I sold (a 172) was basically a handshake deal.   The buyer had wanted me to fly the plane half way across the country for an inspection.  For the reasons above, I told him no.  I gave him the numbers for 5 shops within 20 miles of me and told him he could perform a PPI/Annual at any of them.  He ended  up using the mechanic at the field where I kept the plane and nothing major came up.    And the last time I emailed him, he was enjoying the plane.   --Now a Mooney is a different bird, and there is no way I could find 5 mechanics within 20 miles of my home base that I would trust.  I would have been comfortable expanding the radius to 250 miles.

 

Along those lines, when I went to buy my Mooney, I had several interesting experiences.   One was a Dr. in Nebraska selling a 231.    I wasn't comfortable using the mechanic at his home field, as they had a long term established relationship.  The closest reasonable shop was,  Arapahoe Aero in Englewood CO.   We agreed on the terms and that he would get the plane to the shop for a PPI.  --Well after 2 months of excuses for not getting the plane to Arapahoe Aero (and several missed appointments), I terminated the deal.   It really makes me wonder if he suspected that there was something wrong with the plane.

[Sabremech]

   --Now a Mooney is a different bird, and there is no way I could find 5 mechanics within 20 miles of my home base that I would trust.  I would have been comfortable expanding the radius to 250 miles

 

 

 Huh? It's an airplane and nothing mysterious or overly complex about it. What's so different about it?

 

 David

[chrisk]

 Huh? It's an airplane and nothing mysterious or overly complex about it. What's so different about it?

 

 David

Its not about complexity.  Its about experience with the type.   The experience to look for things like a dented nose gear truss, a jack screw that is not right, SB208, and where to find corrosion.  If I'm buying, I'd just prefer to have an experienced Mooney mechanic look for all the things I don't know about. 

[N1026F]

I just had my '04 Ovation repaired after my "expensive brain fart" of pulling the gear up instead of the flaps. (Apparently, Dugosh is kept very busy by stupid Mooney drivers).

Nonetheless, their service is second to none in the service industry. The service techs, have factory experience and Ronnie and Vannette have been doing Mooneys forever.

They are complete and they found everything that needed to be fixed,repaired or replaced, in addition to an annual while waiting for a couple parts. Dugosh is worth every penny!

But if you want a thorough but inexpensive ( approx. $1000.00 squawk-free) annual by a Mooney driving A & P that is a big Mike Busch fan, call Chris Burnette in Corpus Christi at 361-834-6299. My plan is to use Chris for two or three annuals then fit Dugosh in every three or four years--Chris likes the idea too.  

Either way, you get what you pay for.

 

As a matter of fact, I have the Ovation up there right now because I have a small fuel leak on the left wing that needs to be hunted down and sealed. I don't need a total reseal, just a patch. Obviously, I believe Dugosh is the right place to get it done correctly.

 

If there are any places out here that MS members don't believe are worth the price, it's not libelous (in Texas) to state a simple opinion along the lines that you feel "more comfortable taking you business elsewhere."

 

Along the lines of pre-buys. A short war story from a friend of mine that bought a Citation a couple years ago. He had a pre buy at a San Antonio Service Center. Everything passed and he bought it. At the next annual, the same shop informed him that the thrust reversers needed work because they were now out of spec. (either overhauling or replacement--I don't recall which). Cost: $300,000.00.  I count my blessings for smaller problems...

[garytex]

Did they then tell him it was from running LOP?

[John Pleisse]

Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:35 AM

quik flite, on 10 Oct 2013 - 9:11 PM, said:

A good Mooney Service Center is cheaper in the long run,

 

 Any real numbers to back this up?

 

 

 

 

Sabermech, we all know how competent you are and how much you contribute, but my local FBO is on the job training for Mooeny's. They routinely run across town to the MSC to barrow tools, books, rigging boards, manuals, parts, etc and they sock you with their expenses. I have also done  a couple of owner assist annuals with really good freelance IA's and it's like I have to give them the guided tour. At my MSC, the IA/AP who works on my plane left the military in the early 80's and has done nothing other than Mooney's since, for the same hourly rate I pay my national chain FBO to screw everything up.

 

Saber...wish you were on the east coast, Buddaaay!!