G1000 Mooney non-WAAS Values

[Txbyker]

I understand the first generation G1000 equipped Mooney's got stranded with no upgrade capabilities to add WAAS. Is there no creative solution? How do you think this affects future values of these planes?

Russ

[FoxMike]

Russ,

I do not know this for sure but I have heard the GPS in the G1000 can be upgraded if you fork over the right amount of cash to Garmin.  Check with a radio shop.  The rub is connecting an autopilot to the upgraded system.  I think the STEC autopilot was not certified (flight tested) to work with the upgraded WAAS system.  This could be a very expensive problem to solve.  I would suggest that you consult with an autopilot shop before you spend any money on upgrading.  Good Luck!

[KSMooniac]

I'm pretty sure Mooney controls the upgrade path as the installation is "owned" by them. Call Don and ask for sure...it is/was a crazy amount of money for a software update... Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

[Ron McBride]

I heard that you have to upgrade to the GFC 700 autopilot.  $35,000.00??? 

 

Check with Mooney of an MSC.   Not cheap, worth it, time will tell.    Garmin panels make me nervious, what if the discontinue support, like they have done with many GPS units.

 

Ron

[thinwing]

it was 35 to 50 k and it wasnt just mooneys..also some cessnas were involved....shameful if true..

[jlunseth]

The WAAS upgrade is available through Mooney. I had not heard $50,000, but had heard it was $15,000 - 25,000 depending on the options you wanted with it. I also had not heard that there was a "first generation" of the G1000 that could not be upgraded, but that is possible. It was not a simple software upgrade, it also involved a hardware upgrade, and with hardward upgrades if you start with the wrong hardward to begin with, later upgrades are not always possible. There should be info. on the Mooney site. Try http://www.mooney.com/service-support/waas.html

[Txbyker]

Thanks. I have done more searches here, talk to some specialist and found that only the GFC700 was approved prior to the factory shutdown. So an older G1000/STEC Ovation is not WAAS upgradable. I am currently considering the possibility of upgrading to an Ovation. Would you stay away from a non-WAAS G1000/STEC Ovation?

[FoxMike]

Russ,

I think the answer to your question is obvious.  The only fix I see as 2020 approaches is to equip with a stand alone UAT system.  This solution might work but if it does not what is plan B?  I suppose the current owners of STEC/G1000 Ovations would be flexible on price so maybe you could buy one cheap enough to take the risk.  When it comes your turn to sell you may find it difficult to move the airplane.  Several stand alone systems will be out this summer.  Looks like $5K or so plus installation.  The disadvantage is a premium  PFD/nav system without WAAS. I would have to think carefully about that. 

[KSMooniac]

I don't think I could give up WAAS after enjoying the benefits over the last 6 years, especially with GPSS. I wouldn't buy a plane without it, or without an economically feasible upgrade path. Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

[RJBrown]

These kinds of issues are why I don't trust Garmin. Planned obsolescence. Expensive "upgrades".  I think they pattern the business model after Apple. If you want the "Latest greatest" you must continue to buy the Kool-Aid. Predatory business practices IE Apollo/UPS.  Their plan seems to be how can I extract as much money out of my customer base as possible. They are like the guy in my business that puts in a rear main seal but ignores the almost worn out clutch. Planning to double the labor later by not combining it now. 

[KSMooniac]

I agree completely... I'm a very happy Garmin user after inheriting a 530/430 in my panel, then buying a 496, doing a double WAAS upgrade (under the $1500 special) and later a GTX-330ES.  However, their approach seems to have changed dramatically in the last few years and looking at their competition after they've taken steps to close-off their products from 3rd party products that are already out there.  That kind of behavior tells me they are going for profit maximization at all costs, and I don't care to get locked into their "ecosystem" like Apple does with their products.  Garmin has become the 800 lb gorilla that King used to be, before Garmin knocked them off the block.

 

I hope Aspen, Avidyne, and even Honeywell/King really get back in the market in a big way with competitive and viable products.  After hearing the latest from Aspen at Maxwell's fly-in, I'm hopeful we will have some good options.  The Aspen connected panel, integration with the Avidyne DFC=90 autopilot, etc. is very encouraging, as are their ADS-B solutions for nearly every scenario.  Avidyne's pin-compatible GPS/Com boxes seem to be a good product that hopefully gets approved very, very soon.  They seem to have their own PFD solution in the works, too.  Honeywell's partnership with Aspen will hopefully FINALLY bear fruit with a viable KSN-770 GPS/Com that plays nicely with an Aspen PFD.

 

Additionally, the new energy surrounding the Part 23 re-write might help remove obstacles for getting some of this great tech out into the market at affordable prices...we'll see.

[GeneS]

Thanks. I have done more searches here, talk to some specialist and found that only the GFC700 was approved prior to the factory shutdown. So an older G1000/STEC Ovation is not WAAS upgradable. I am currently considering the possibility of upgrading to an Ovation. Would you stay away from a non-WAAS G1000/STEC Ovation?

 

No!  Don't stay away!  In fact, buy mine!  A 2005 Ovation 2 GX with the G1000/STEC.  Brian Kendrick is right now doing the most awesome annual ever and it can be yours for $229k.  Wha?  No, seriously.

 

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20R-OVATION2-GX/2005-MOONEY-M20R-OVATION2-GX/1266877.htm

 

The lack of WAAS is not an issue and not worth the price of the upgrade, in any airplane, ever.

 

Gene

[Parker_Woodruff]

Hey Russ,

What about buying a 2004 or earlier Mooney M20R? That way you have a lot more control of your upgrade path as certain products become outdated. I would load it up with a few Aspen displays and then the Avidyne autopilot and GPS when it's available.

Another solution would be to buy my M20K and then I'll also sell you my position for the Avidyne IFD440 which will solve the WAAS problem

[KSMooniac]

 

The lack of WAAS is not an issue and not worth the price of the upgrade, in any airplane, ever.

 

 

I don't mean to piss all over your parade, but that is just a stupid statement.  WAAS is certainly the future and offers a LOT of advantages right now that I've been enjoying for the last 6 years.  Do you think there will be any new ILS installations?  How about maintenance on existing installations when something breaks?  NDBs and VORs are disappearing currently, and there is no reason to believe the same won't happen to ILS in the future.

 

Your R is very nice and the price is extremely attractive for anyone looking at these.  In fact, I'm surprised it hasn't moved yet.  Perhaps Neal isn't as good at selling Mooneys as he is with Beech products?  

[Marauder]

All I can say is I wish Parker had a "layaway" department. I would gobble it up in a minute. Parker -- since Bennett hasn't been willing to adopt me, maybe you can!

[jnisley]

I don't think I could give up WAAS after enjoying the benefits over the last 6 years, especially with GPSS. I wouldn't buy a plane without it, or without an economically feasible upgrade path.

I agree!

[bnicolette]

 

The lack of WAAS is not an issue

 

Gene

 

And Snake Oil is the best product ever!!

[GeneS]

My personal experience is that in actual flying, WAAS has made little difference.  I fly a Baron with a 530/430 both with WAAS and the Mooney above with the G1000 without WAAS.  I put the WAAS in the Baron as soon as it became available for the 530/430.  I fly  about 300 hrs per year, mostly business trips.  There is not one trip since I've had the WAAS in the Baron where I can say that the WAAS was a factor in my go/no go decision.  I've flown several WAAS approaches to minimums but in every case there was an ILS alternate.

 

I'm pretty sure there'll be ILS approaches for at least another ten years.  And at some point in this next ten years everyone who has a panel today, Garmin or otherwise, with or without WAAS, will likely upgrade it to a more modern panel with features, other than WAAS, that are not currently available.

 

So, my experience is, in real flying, WAAS is not an issue. 

 

As far as being economically feasible to upgrade the '05 G1000 to WAAS, it costs about the same as installing a new 530/430 WAAS in any other airplane.  If it's economically feasible to spend $40,000 on a panel upgrade in a $100,000 airplane then its certainly economically feasible to spend the same about in a $250,000 airplane.  My point is that it's just unnecessary. 

[Cris]

Well I certainly do not have a dog in this fight but this is a classic example of being a seller vs being a buyer. Depends on which side of the fence one is on. In my own experience I have not found Wass to be an overriding deterent to any flight I have made but then I tend to go where there are ILS approaches. If I were based at a field that only had GPSS then Wass would be a requirement for me. I do know that many people passed on my Screamin' Eagle before I purchased it due to the fact it did not have Wass. For me it made no differance as I'm based at an ILS field and I knew there were new WASS boxes in the pipeline. I counted it as a plus as I got to buy the plane at a reduced price and ultimately equip it with the latest and greatest Wass box. However, I know if I do not upgrade to Wass and want to sell it will become an "issue" for the buyer either real or perceived. Minimally it will be used to negotiate the price.

[KSMooniac]

Cris, I agree completely with your situation and sentiment.  I think the Eagles (especially conversions to R status) are a great deal in the market these days because they don't come loaded with rapidly-aging avionics.  Cheaper to buy, cheaper to own, and you can upgrade however and whenever you choose.  Quite a few options to choose from in terms of PFD, MFD, GPS nav, etc. that aren't available to the G1000 birds.

 

Personally I have flown into one field on an Angel Flight mission with a WAAS/LPV approach that got me in successfully where the other available approaches would not have worked.  This was a smaller field with no ILS.  That is only half the value, though, IMO as WAAS + GPSS provides a great safety improvement for single pilot IFR ops since it will fly all turns, holds, etc. without any pilot attention.  That is very, very nice when things get busy.

[GeneS]

... That is only half the value, though, IMO as WAAS + GPSS provides a great safety improvement for single pilot IFR ops since it will fly all turns, holds, etc. without any pilot attention.  That is very, very nice when things get busy.

 

 

Agreed, but the '05 G1000/STEC has GPSS and will fly all turns and holding with just the normal button pushing.  The only thing it doesn't do is the LPV part of a GPS approach.  If your home field has a GPS approach with LPV minimums and no ILS or if you frequently fly into an airport like this, then maybe the upgrade is important to you.  Whether you are upgrading a G1000 to WAAS or a 530/430 to WAAS or a 530/430 to a 750/650 it's going to be at least $25,000.  For me, it would not be worth the money to upgrade.

 

When I first bought the Baron it had RNAV and a Loran.  Now it has the WAAS 530/430.  It still goes the same speed, burns the same gas, carries the same load and accesses the same airports in the same weather.  The new moving maps are fun to look at and make flying safer and easier but they add no capability to the aircraft.

 

oh, and somebody please buy my Mooney!!  I love it but I just can't justify two airplanes anymore.  It's fast, efficient and sexy.  Where else are you going to find that?  Plus, I'm 6'4 and 250lbs and I fit just fine.

 

Gene

[KSMooniac]

WAAS debate aside, I'm surprised it still hasn't sold!  It looks great and is very attractively priced compared to other late-model Ovations out there right now.

[GeneS]

There are instances of "damage" that I think are keeping it from selling.  Right after I got it, the NACA vent on the left side started vibrating and tore the skin about 1".  It went back to Kerrville for repairs at the factory.  Then, about a year later, while it was tied down in Gainesville, Fl a storm blew an unrestrained Aztec into the right wing.  That bent the flap and broke the fiberglass tip so, again, back to Kerrville for repairs.  AND THEN a freaking little bird dinged the leading edge of the right wing, so again, back to Kerrville.  All repairs were done at the factory by the same people who built it, no expense spared because it was all covered by insurance.

 

So, it's got "damage history", hence, the low price.  What would be awesome is if someone would by it for $289,000 to protect the value of everyone else's Ovation. I think that's a great idea.  Y'all talk about it and get back to me.

 

Gene

[bnicolette]

It will go Gene. Its too good of a price for a beautiful airplane. So what if its been nicked up a bit. Its been repaired the right way!

How is it that the crook in TN can sell airplanes that have been dismantled and put back together by who knows what guidelines and a plane of this caliber is sitting on the market?

I do have a question though. Is it getting close to needing some jug work? Seems a lot of these engines go through some top end work after the 1K hour mark?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[GeneS]

I do have a question though. Is it getting close to needing some jug work? Seems a lot of these engines go through some top end work after the 1K hour mark?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I kind of expected that I would be needing cylinders about now but it's currently in for the annual and all compressions are good and it doesn't burn a lot of oil so no cylinders this time.